CHAPTER 5 Roundtable: Finding Your Voice

Many confuse style with voice. Even artists themselves seek to hit a stylistic stride, but the journey doesn't end there. Finding one's ‘authentic’ voice—that elusive goal so ever-present in pop culture these days—may have less to do with craft, technique or superficial style and everything to do with worldview. With nurturing the inner realm and discovering what drives us to create in the first place.  Truly finding ones voice is that universal milestone when we connect craft with a deep seated drive to self-express, then contribute it back to the collective in a purposeful way. 

In this episode, cohost Virginia Grenier moderates a roundtable on Chapter Five of Language of the Soul, and we welcome back artist Joan Marie, whose work centers on personal power portraits and spiritually driven imagery.

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Transcript

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Welcome And Series Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Hi guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul Podcast, where life is story. I'm gonna invite Virginia in straight out the gate, my partner in crime, I often call her. But I am gonna babble a little bit about the nature of this week's episode. But firstly, welcome Virginia Grenier.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Thank you for having me. I'm always here, anyways, but thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Well, thanks for coming. Yeah. Well, you're playing a big part today. Uh, you're moderating. So that's part of my intro, is I want listeners to know because we don't we fantasize that we have regular listeners, but that may or may not be the case. So for those that just tune in here and there, which is that's kind of how I listen to podcasts, I pick and choose. Uh, we're in the middle of a series where we're doing what we call roundtable episodes, discussing the content of my book, Language of the Soul, which was the impetus for this podcast. But it's been really rewarding to me, of course, because sharing the material is is for me and I think a lot of artists, the completion of the circuit. And it's where the satisfaction lies, sharing the work. Sometimes you forget how inspired you were, you know, time passes, and I think that's a real art in itself, remaining uh believing in the work over time when you then have to promote it. But for me, it's not even promotion, it's the sharing that matters to me, that means something to me. In that spirit, I just wanted to say, for those that don't know, the whole book came about because I was asked mid-pandemic to do a series about story. And I remember thinking, ugh, do we need another do we need another book? Or, you know, um, it was really just a workshop in cyberspace. Do we need another talking head talking about the mechanics of Western storytelling structure? I just thought there's enough content out there about story, but I agreed to do it because I was able to focus on what matters to me, which is why we tell stories in the first place. So I really focused on that. That's the whole spirit of this podcast. But I guess what I'm getting at is I did an online, I don't know why I'm calling it a workshop. It was a limited edition, I guess it was, yeah, a workshop. But it was like a class, really, and it had a huge global reach, and it felt really good to me. I think Tina was happy with it at CTN. But more importantly, I felt really good about what I was putting out into the universe. And in that, so it very organically became the book. I just took my outlines from that workshop and fleshed them out, and it really resembles the workshop. But what I want to say is that in my 20 years of teaching, and specifically in that workshop, which had a global reach, as I said, the most asked question was like, How do I find my voice? And some people meant, how do I find a style? And in illustration, which I, you know, is largely what I was teaching. I was teaching mostly um visual development artists or aspiring visual development artists for animation. So most of us have our artists that we admire, our heroes, and we see some kind of flair or some kind of style or voice that sets them apart. And it has to do with worldview more so than technique. Just having a developed inner realm, you know, call it emotional maturity or spiritual evolution, whatever that component is, that's the thumbprint that's sort of you can't teach. It's indescribable. And it's your soul on paper or on in the digital era or on in the pixels. So that is the most asked question is how do I stand out? How do I find my voice? Well, I'm the one guy who's going to say voice is more than technique. That's just style. And some of us have a voice that will shine through a given style, right? We can be versatile or adaptable or adapt to a given style for a given project. But I would hope the voice, what you have to say in the world, shines through a given style. Anyway, more on that later. I'm sure some of that stuff will come up. But I just want you to know I'm pretty excited about these latter chapters and the final one I got to preach. I realized in the writing of the book, and I think a lot of our listeners who might be writers will relate to this. You can have an outline, but as you flesh it out, the beauty of the creative process is it gains a life of its own. And I just really concretized, if that's a word, what I had to say with this book. And it became very much my life's purpose. Some of you know too that I had a health scare and really didn't know if I was going to live or die. So this felt very much like me trying to leave a legacy in my at that time 56 years or whatever. I felt like I do have something to say. How about that? So the final chapter gets maybe a little too preachy, but it felt like this is if I have anything to impart, this is it. So anyway, I just got in touch with that this morning and preparing. Like I need to tap back into the excitement I felt when it felt like you know, it was inspired and it was something the universe needed. Okay, so in that spirit, um, Virginia's gonna moderate like before, and she's I think got some prompts based on concepts in the book. And then Joan, who is our guest today, is gonna chime in and hopefully we'll both have something to say about a given topic. So, do you want to um introduce Joan or shall I, Virginia?

SPEAKER_04 6:15

You always do it so well.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

You just got to I don't have her bio in front of me.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

I don't either.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Well, Joan is a former guest, so I'm gonna say this. Please listen to her former episode because it was beyond inspiring. And not having the bio in front of me, I'm just gonna leave it at this. And you can tell listeners anything you'd like to know, you'd like them to know about you, Joan. But she does amazing artwork that regularly inspires me online. I see it mostly on Insta and in Facebook, and she does personal power portraits, which I think encapsulate uh, you know, uh the client's essence. It's their soul on paper. So there's a whole conversation there as well. And she's the perfect guest for this topic. So I'm gonna invite her in uh before you start moderating and say, Welcome, Joan Marie.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Yay, thank you. I love your book. So thank you so much for letting me be a part of uh a part of discussing this most important chapter. So awesome.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Well, we're honored that you care. You know, I I'm always honored when anybody relates to my work at all, let alone feels inspired to chime in and say something about it. It's a gift to me. So thank you. But what should listeners know about where you're at in your journey? I I mentioned the power portraits, but I know that you have other irons on the fire as well. What are you all about, Joan Marie?

Joan On Spiritual Art Journey

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Yeah, how didn't you put that in a package? I don't know. I'm a horrible interviewer. I I love it because I really can simple simple simplify it by saying, I think finding my voice is finding my soul, you know, connecting to my soul. Like like you said, it's a spiritual uh connection. My spirituality was always what I was seeking, and and I was had this huge passion to be an artist. And it's the stronger my spirituality and my awareness of life and my soul became the the stronger my art, the more my art spoke to me, you know, and that's what really mattered. So I mean, the phases that life goes through is I I have so much to say about this topic, it's beyond oh my god, like well, you embody you embody somebody who's in alignment.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

I mean, that's what the book goes into is when you connect it with a sense of purpose, when you figure out why you're doing what you've been doing, right? So you're the embodiment of that, and I love hearing you say that. Based on what you just said, did you notice that the clients that it was landing differently once you felt aligned in that respect?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Oh, totally. And I was just gonna say, I I I uh produced a an Oracle deck, and it was 99 of my original paintings, and I'm 76 now. When I started at age 19, is when I got serious about art because I saw Michelangelo's 16 ceiling, and that's what spoke to me. And you know, like I just had like an out-of-body experience and said, Oh my God, if art can be this powerful, I have to be a part of it. That was my huge message. I'm not really dramatizing that, you know. I usually like to get into the drama of what that felt like. I mean, I could hardly stand, but that was such a powerful message to me that my art is gonna be spiritual. I mean, it's spiritually based. But I was defining it as my art is to give powerful, um, positive messages to the world. So it wasn't until I was age 31 and went through all those years of learning technique, like you were talking about technique, improving my skills and uh so many you know, chapters of growth that I moved to Sedona, not knowing that Sedona was a spiritual center, didn't even know what a vortex was. I I started doing my art there, and I was like, oh my God, finally my art is speaking. So we so go going back to my Oracle deck, like I pulled all 99 images out of my life's work from age, it's really, I think it started when I was 31, because to me it was all technique development until then. I pulled all the most spiritual moments that that were just so powerful for me spiritually, and now I feel like I'm on a roll because I have finally gained a place of peace and acceptance of myself. Like I joke when I give a workshop, I go, you know, I I I've been so insecure and down on myself, and I just gained my confidence like yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

I love it, it's so inspiring. It's never too late to find your voice or I know step into your purpose. I I love that. Do you feel though? I I guess my question is no offense, I don't want to downplay anything, but I think we all relate a little bit to like getting the technique under our belt or getting the craft under our belt, and then you figure out most of us then figure out why we're doing it in the first place, and you might reconnect with being a child or you know what drove you to express yourself in a given way. But do you feel like it went down as it was meant to go down? Could you have rushed that process of really because you are technically amazingly proficient, and that takes a while to master craft? So any regrets, I guess, is what I'm asking.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

I you know, yeah, there was a ton of regrets because I kept myself blocked so bad, and but you know, you can't have regrets. I want I learned that as one of the huge spiritual lessons, right? No regrets are allowed, you know. So the journey was perfect where I was.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

I couldn't have pushed that, you know. But like my sister regrets, frankly, being a Christian and kind of limiting her thought forms for so long, and then she just grew so much when she got out of that dogma. But I regularly tell her, none of it is wasted time. You know, you were a beautiful example to so many people in your purity, and uh, like a quick example. We were singing at a wedding, we went to San Francisco just to sing at a wedding, and she opened her mouth in this church like an angel. And this girl just came up and literally like was braiding her hair, and they became soul sisters. And I was reminded her of that. Like, you might think it was wasted time, but you did embody something. Your chores was always there, if that makes sense, and it made you who you are.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

You know what's so what struck me when you said that how someone is attracted is it's energy, it's everything, it's energy. I I can't uh you know, I look back at oh, I wish this, I wish that, I wish I wasn't, you know, but my energy was so driven and so happy because I was so driven, even though I wasn't anywhere like I wanted to be. I thought I was, you know, I was always putting myself down, my art down, my mind down, uh everything possible. But I was so happy because I was so driven. Right energy gives off where people think all these different things. They think I'm so confident, they think I'm so happy, and I am, but I'm not. So I had like these two battles going on, but it but it drew the energy of positivity. If that does that make sense, oh yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Well, but I'm just glad you're free of the voices of a doubt or you know, and that you stepped into self-love. That is a journey we're all on. So you seem like you've arrived to me from the outside.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Yeah, see, you know, when I first learned, and I don't remember what age, 35 or whatever, that you had to love yourself or you can't move forward. I was like, I'm supposed to love myself, but see, I am now. Right. Are you kidding? There is no way, you know, like I am not who I want to be. And and I was so hyper, and I was told that hyper is because you're not happy with who you are, you're anxiously trying to be someone else, and that fits so perfectly that I thought my hyper energy was high energy, and you know, I got a lot of a lot of work done, a lot of action done, a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of passion. I thought it was really cool, but inside I it was really true. I wasn't happy, so I was on this. I mean, I couldn't have a conversation with someone unless it was about art. Like my mind was just, you know, if it wasn't about art, I was just like, why am I wasting this time? I've got to move to this next thing or person, or just get don't be around people if they're not talking. I mean, it was just like this, you know, and it actually it was more of a um, you know, unhappy energy. Well, I mean, don't look so happy, right? It's so weird.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Well, it's it's relatable though. I mean, the universal, I can't I feel like I'm diminishing your story, and I don't want to do that, but we need to move on to the the book. But I think, and I'm gonna turn it over to Virginia, but the universal part of that that I that I hear is that socialization conditioning, maybe the influences in our own family in our own home or our partner, a lot of voices shame you for your core essence. And maybe true self-love is seeing the gift and even the things you're shamed for, whether it's neurodivergence or a learning disability, or in my case, just being a weirdo, like seeing the world in a different way that wasn't supported in my surroundings, like all of that is the gift. So Virginia knows we've done many episodes. Uh, our earliest, one of our earliest episodes was how do you say I always say trisomy, but I know that's not right. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_04 15:46

Um, yeah, you're talking about uh oh gosh, tris trisomy or trisomy. Yeah, try try trisomy. She did was trisomy 31, right? Is what she was saying.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Something like it. Anyway, we all agreed eventually that you know, seeing the gift in the uniqueness of your child, that's what you need to support. And not to make it about me, but I I just sometimes go, what if? Like, no regrets, but what if somebody said it's okay that you see the world differently? I mean, I got a lot of support, I can't complain, but I could have felt safer for being a weirdo. Anyway, are we talking about the same thing? I think we are all on a journey of self-love at some point.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

Yeah, I agree. And uh see on that note, I think I stole my thunder. No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Oh no, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

I'm kidding. No, it's actually a good transition.

What Finding Your Voice Really Means

SPEAKER_04 16:39

So just for our listeners, really quick, um we do have all the chapters of Language of the Soul, Nick's narrating them, so you can go back and listen to them each individually throughout in season three of our podcast. Um, we are focusing on chapter five, which is finding your voice. Um and I I love the conversation that you and Joan were just having because it really I think comes down to the fact of what you even talk about in the chapter that the conversation is much bigger than just art itself or just um creativity and going to what we're you guys were just talking about. So I said perfect transition. And the reason why I feel that way is because all of us are shaped by literally our culture, family, relationships, education, loss, success, failure, all the experiences that influence who we are and how we express ourselves. Um so when going through the chapter myself and just kind of thinking like, where's a good jumping off point, right? To get the conversation going and what it actually means to find your voice, um, to trust it and ultimately decide what you want to do with it, this is what came up for me. Um so I think the the phrase finding your voice as though there's this fully formed authentic self somewhere inside of us, wanting to be uncovered. But we're also constantly being shaped by our experiences and relationships. And so the thought that I had is when we talk about returning to our core essence, which you also talk about in the chapter as well, Nick, um, before limiting our ideas that come through through socialization, educational forces. Do you think we actually find our voice, or are we actually creating and recreating it throughout our lives?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Joan, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 18:33

I think we're born with so much that we have covered up because of our society and our experiences and our judgments and our, you know, what what we feel is wrong. I mean, that was, you know, what I experienced because people would say to me later on as as my art started, you know, speaking to people, they said, Oh, you're so gifted. God gave you such a gift. And I'm like, Yeah, with a lot of hard work.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

I mean, it took me like years because I didn't, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't drawing well and doing my art well, painting well naturally, because I was insecure about my art from the beginning. From starting high school, I started blocking myself. Really, if I wouldn't have been so down on myself, I think that natural, God-given, you know, um voice or skill or even skill level, a certain level of it would have been there. But I blocked it so bad. And I see that now. But that was my first reaction. I couldn't accept people to say you've been given this gift.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Well, that is again universal because that's a huge raging debate, this idea of God-given talent. And some people are, I guess, admirably humble about their gifts. And you know, they say, like you said, it's uh sorry, it's been curated, it's a lot of hard work. So there, I have heard it all on that front, you know, having taught in the arts for so many years. And um, I think it's all of the above, but maybe when it comes to what we do, Joan, as visual artists, you you gotta have the temperament to want to sit there. You have to have the temperament and the disposition to hone your skill or even observe. It's really seeing, right? More than painting. You got to learn to see. So you say you're hyper, but clearly you can focus enough to master that. So I do think, yeah, gift. Nah, I've seen my first uh drawing 101 class in junior college in preparation to go to art center. I saw people that had literally never picked up a pencil that came out with photorealistic renderings. Skill, craft can be taught, but you have to have maybe the temperament and the disposition to sit there long enough. Beyond that, maybe we do have a desire to take the world around us and our observations and our experiences, and maybe do our rendition of them and then regurgitate that and share it. I think all humans want to express themselves. I think all humans are creative, but actually those that pursue a life in art have that extra little something, something, maybe a need. We could be broken and have a need to express ourselves. Who knows? We'll never know what God-given talent really is. But maybe it's just that desire to do it and that you gotta have hands to to paint. Well, Joni painted with her teeth. I don't know if you guys know Joni, uh, but maybe you have to have the the tool or something like that, and then the drive, like you said, Joan, the drive to do it. But I think, Virginia, you were saying finding one's voice has nothing to do with self-professed artists or creatives, that it's part of the spiritual journey we all share, maybe. And then you were asking, do you really have a core spiritual essence, or is that always evolving? I would say purpose is always evolving, maybe. And I discovered a lot of this in writing the book, but I so value ongoing intellectual curiosity, ongoing brain plasticity, that I think let's say you feel like you found your voice at age 40, and then well, I finally connected it to my craft. Now I'm painting the things that I really care about in life. Finally, I feel like I'm saying something conceptually through my art, or I'm touching hearts through my art because I connected it. Who knows? That can evolve, absolutely, and it should evolve. Maybe your chemist artistique, your journey should evolve, or you just throw your hands in the air and cut to the chase, and you're six feet under. Maybe it should evolve till the day you die, something like that.

SPEAKER_04 22:39

Well, and I think it goes back to one of the things that we talk about a lot, too, that if if we do throw our hands up. the air and we're not constantly looking for progress. Um, you know, allowing ourselves to this is sorry, my brain just went right into therapy. So here I go. Um but to sit, you know, to sit in the struggles, right? And and to and to witness what is evolving around us. Um and then therefore again, you know, put meaning to it versus find meaning, right, assign meaning and then the purpose re-evolves again.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Is that adapting? Is that a good word?

SPEAKER_04 23:15

Yeah adaptation. Exactly. And I like something that you said, Joan, um, when you talked about how when you were younger, um and you know, so before you hit your your early 30s where you loved art, you're practicing your craft, getting the techniques down, all of that stuff. And yet you identify the fact that you felt insecure as well. So even though people liked what they were seeing you put on the canvas and and were manifesting at the same time, you you didn't it sounds like there was that battle with the internal self of um the insecurity of do I truly believe in what I'm doing. And so I would love for you to speak to that and the journey of understanding self because you you talked about self-love and um you know how could I love myself before then because I didn't have that insecurity. And I'm like well how about self-compassion would that would that be a way to look at to to to love to love who you were at that time knowing there was still more to discover.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Well you know when you understand the huge value of passion if I would just have given myself tons of credit for having passion I mean I used to ask a class you know like what's the most important attribute and like we just discussed it again is it is it skill is it you know I listed a bunch of things and passion is the number one can't teach passion like you just said Dominique you know and um but so I should have given myself credit for having that drive and passion. And if I would have understood that yes we do grow I believe we grow spiritually but we can't it's not Amazon Prime. We you know we live in this anxiousness you know like oh if I study this or learn this or look this skill or do this it's gonna I'm gonna do this masterpiece tonight because I'm ready you know like no I'm sorry it may or may not happen and and it might but it might not and if you just understand the presence of being in the moment and being in the moment is the hugest thing because a busy brain just gets in the way of every you know so much. I mean I have so many stories of you know trying too hard and and the worst things come out and then just let like you know you said in your book Dominique you gave an example of those and yeah like just when you didn't try as hard you just let it flow and all of a sudden you're like whoa and then you got like for with some of my paintings I go back in after I flowed and tried to like think I'm going to change things I'm like no wow that energy was so authentic and so beautiful. But but kind of back to my child you know growth passion if you just understand the process of how life works that you do grow but it it's just whatever pace um your life grows you just accept it you know like it's hard to accept it when when you get stopped by so many challenges you know well I think that's what we're talking about is maybe the challenges never go away.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

You don't arrive I was joking earlier when I said you arrived because maybe adapt or die. That which doesn't grow begins to die. And in life I wouldn't want it any other way challenges are uncomfortable at best, right? And then there are existential crises at worse but it is how we grow and I think we need to grow to adapt. So I'll just say that. And then I love that you focus on the word passion.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Obviously I was squirting around it but passion is what made me different and people are afraid of passion whether it takes the form of my big Italian mouth or no editing mechanism who knows it's there's a lot in that but I think people are scared of passion because like we've been hinting at socialization and conditioning makes people clam up or become political or become diplomatic and not express themselves directly in an authentic way that word keeps coming up and so yeah passion I I think it's a euphemism I often joke what's the alternative boring I I wouldn't want to be that so maybe I'm giving myself too much license but I'm not the only passionate artist out there and I often think nah I don't want the alternative boring go ahead my favorite my favorite phrase is passion is your magic oh uh to me that I mean that's kind of my tagline you know like that's everything because life is magic when you start seeing life as magic instead of one you know my mom used to say life is one problem after another like oh my god what a view you it sounds like deaf and you know deaf and taxes exactly but when you see life as magic the possibility of magic is in every single moment that you can start putting the word awe in there you know no matter what challenge is going on i mean you know those words like oh joseph campbell bliss living to your i mean those are my those are my words yay joseph living to your bliss you know like and i'm like yes i'm in bliss you know but then i'm fighting myself inside you know but yeah yeah i'm in bliss but you know i'm not this i'm not that and like oh my god would you just shut up finally i've quieted that i love all the words you're using really i knew you'd bring something more to the table and the way you're expressing this is you know obviously parallel with what i've written in the book but i love the way you put it it sounds like permission too just permission to live in your bliss yeah we're also wonderful we and we're only a we only have passion towards whatever is in us to have passion for so you know people that don't have passion for art are you know uh art obviously will probably never be able to learn the skills either because they really don't have you know they're I I don't know am I wording that right I don't think you get attracted to something you you don't want to do something that you're not gonna be able to do I yeah there's a lot of voices I spent a lot of time in this chapter actually talking about quieting those voices that that would silence you Virginia I promise you I'm gonna let you dovetail off of this but I just wanted to say you hit on a word that I use in my writing a lot and it's code.

Passion Magic And The Zone

SPEAKER_01 29:41

So I do give examples here and there in the book. I didn't make it about me too much but sometimes if it made perfect sense to talk about the writing of the nameless prince or the seeker or whatever I would pull well actually the seeker hadn't happened yet but I did uh pull some anecdotes from my filmmaking and from the discovery process of writing the nameless prince and I did realize at one point I think one of the stages in finding your voice is just realizing wow everything I've ever written or drawn falls under this umbrella dot dot dot takes you a while to see the big picture but for me I joke even in the intro of the book like really everything I've ever created is toward the end goal of and it sounds condescending but waking people up enlightening people um slapping them in the face and just you know jolting them or however you want to do it that there is subtext in life you know that there's more than the surface and that doesn't mean as much to me now but I think I was surrounded by dysfunction. So there's a a narrative that silences anything but the surface of things so I was very motivated to say hey look there's an emotional subtext there's a spiritual subtext like you said be in the moment and see more than the surface it sounds silly now but I just thought people were shallow so my work was about that but my point is I think it took the form of magic in the Nameless Prince and even the Loch Ness screenplay that I wrote it's I use the code word magic. Let's not give up on childhood magic. Let's and it's a form of that template of uh you know preserving innocence but the form of innocence that I am focused on is magic and that is code for spiritual spirituality that there's a hell of a lot more going on here than we're willing to acknowledge or then society supports that we acknowledge but I slyly use magic and yes some of it is you know family entertainment and I've got I guess G-rated films that are meant to speak to children and it is a rally a cry a call to action to not give up on childhood magic. The imagination of childhood is what we all need to retain and that includes a belief in things you can't see spiritual shit.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

Yeah that's that's good. Um so to just tell you where my where my mind's bringing back the doveto um so what I'm hearing from both of you um and especially when you're sharing Joan is it's important to to to take the journey even though we don't like to take the journey right because we've talked about those struggles and ups and downs. And so I I I I use this analogy a lot and I actually use it because of my writing background. I use it in therapy where I tell people like when you open up a book right you read you read the book Jack and you're like oh this looks interesting so it perks your curiosity right and then you start to read the first I always say the hundred pages because if you're not invested in a hundred pages you're probably gonna put the book down. And then what happens is is people want to know well how's it going to end? So you got the the readers out there that will literally read the last chapter because they want to know the end. Well I feel like when we talk about finding your voice that it's really that middle of the book right that that middle section that wandering path where we get you know in writing we say don't you know don't have the wandering middle um because you want to because you want to keep keep the readers invested but however it does wander purposefully um because it's that growth cycle um and so kind of going back to what you're saying Nick with the curiosity well you said magic so I'm gonna say curiosity to it is would you say that when when when you're in the zone as as as we use in sports metaphors and an artistic metaphor that that wonder that magic that curiosity that's when those sparks start to happen which is when we we shut off the naysayers we shut off basically logic talking to us giving us those narratives the doom speaking that allows the voice to surface Joan I'll let you respond first because clearly I can I've got a lot of hot air oh my mind wandered was like I think you better go I I um go ahead first I I went into a whole nother category with well we're we're open to anything but I I just maybe you're right Virginia that's what the zone is right is um well I think the zone can be your body knows how to do everything you can make that basket if you get all those competing voices out of the way right it knows the physics of how to whether you're just like throwing a ball-up piece of paper into the trash can across the room and I I'm gonna bring up a silly example when we used to play quarters in the 80s you know quarters right uh my friend Sherry would only make it it's a drinking game truth be told uh but she would only make it when she would also read a magazine like she wouldn't even care the minute she stopped caring she would always make it so I think there's that being in the moment letting go and trusting the universe to speak non-locally through you not to get too wacky but maybe Virginia I what I heard is like that's what quiets the voices and then in terms of doubt or self-doubt nothing wild horses couldn't stop you from creating when you're in the zone you so believe in the inspiration and it's not about you anymore or your ego the universe is I'm getting real wacky real early on here but maybe the universe is using you as an antenna because it knows what's needed and you just can't argue with that.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So when you get the ego out of the equation and surrender to the moment I'm saying a lot of platitudes here that's when you yeah wild horses couldn't stop you from expressing yourself and executing a project.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

I know you're zoning out Joan but anything at all on and what Virginia proposed which is no absolutely I I um if you just understood that life happens on its own like um you can't we have we want control like I remember how many times I'm like I had this this vision for my life to be this certain way my art to be this certain way visually financially whatever and then I I thought I had this control it didn't happen it freaked me out. Then this horrible challenge happens and it freaks me out. You know like finally I realized oh my gosh all these things that redirect you and take you in other directions that's the magic of life that's the spiritual journey that we just need to embrace and we finally understand that that's the way life is you're never going to escape challenges you're going to just flow with them better and um and that and you're gonna embrace them as knowing that that's the journey you're supposed to take and it's good. And you can view it like that like the best you can when you're in the middle of some horrible crap that you have to experience why me and all this stuff you know get over that conversation but um but if you start embracing that that's how life is and seeing that as being the magic you know that the negatives as being the magic like whoa really well it's it sounds too like just trusting the magic or having faith isn't that faith larger exactly exactly I mean because I just went through a lot of heavy challenges and I'm not I am doing the best art I've ever done I am in the flow like I'm just looking at these pieces these last eight pieces nine actually I just want where are they coming from it's so different and it's maybe not so different maybe it it is to me like it just feels like magic and I and it's because of the challenges I just went through and you know I'm I'm finally really embracing all that so beautiful beautiful I'm wondering would it be fair to say that in surrendering to the pot to the realm of possibility um where and I loved what you said Joan when you said control you know when you're trying to control everything and it's not what I expected like having these set expectations that we don't know what the actual outcome is going to be or trying to to hold hold on to sand right because you want to control sand in your hand but it's gonna slip through your fingers no matter how much you're trying to hold on to it.

SPEAKER_04 38:26

By surrendering and realizing okay these things I can't hold they're just gonna slip through my fingers. I can't control them all I'm doing is limiting myself do you feel like that's when the the realm of possibilities the the curiosity and being able to see more options and choices come about.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Yeah I mean it's all about quieting quieting that chatter yeah that's exactly you know it's like that's the whole key stop you know quieting the chatter stuff it eliminates the judgment and the fear and you know all these things. So I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah no it did.

Surrender Faith And Pure Potential

SPEAKER_01 39:06

I'm gonna quote a few people that I actually quote in the book and I feel sheepish uh quoting D fact Chopra now because he's become a little bit controversial. But you know he would call it the field of pure potential of Virginia um and that is the space that I think we draw on in all creative ventures and I talk about Hades a lot in the book and you know where artists dwell but yeah I think artist or not the field of pure potential I think is what we want to access in life. And then having faith is really tricky as you said surrendering is a scary prospect because we have ego for a reason right we have ego to protect us and you know it's a survival mechanism. But um Marianne Williamson I'm gonna try to quote her I'll probably botch it but in the book I do it more successfully and I cite you know there's a list of citations in the back she said something like you know I I think people have this fantasy that surrendering means you're gonna go detach and become a monk on a mountaintop in Nepal or that you're just not using all your faculties and there's also this romantic idea that when you surrender and do God's will if that makes sense or just let the universe work through you use whatever language you want that it's a form of sacrifice and that you're gonna be flogging yourself and it's a form of martyrdom and it's like nobody's asking it to live a horrible life you might be stepping into your purpose but if she said something really funny like Marianne Williamson said a woman came up to the mic at one of her seminars and said well if I surrender what if yeah God puts me on a mountaintop somewhere and her answer was like why would he do that? You have this beautiful gift you're an amazing songwriter he's not going to make you an accountant God gave you those gifts so that's maybe Virginia to make it full circle why I feel like it's a return to your core essence because if you do have one I don't subscribe to a lot of these anthropomorphized ideas about spirituality like I look down on the planet and I picked that body and I chose these contracts with these people or soul groups.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

I mean I I relate to a degree to all of it but I don't personally relate so much to the intent before arriving on the planet you know but I do think that you have a core essence when you arrive and we could do a whole episode about whether it's cellular memory or it's in the DNA or what you're what baggage you got from your mom and what baggage you got from your dad and the unfinished spiritual business who knows but I think you're given a temperament and a disposition and in my economy a spiritual essence have I lost anyone no you haven't actually it goes it goes right it goes right into where I was going next so um so that was beautiful um I don't like the long silence no I was I was making sure Jonathan have something more to say okay um I I just want to say don't beat yourself up you know like with all that stuff of like if you think you if if you truly believe that you know you picked all these things that are bad things that have happened to you a lot of times I've heard I've seen people just go but why would I do that? What past life what did I and they they're beating themselves up so they're piling themselves on with more self-loathing and yeah that doesn't that stops the flow totally and so it's it's not yeah it's not empowering and we do that tell me if this is a parallel we do it with the world too what I've noticed is people want an airtight teleological system and they look for gaps.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Like why would a loving God A B C or D don't do that to yourself. You know that's not empowering but also what people may not grasp is that a lot of spiritual principles exist in tandem they don't exist in isolation it's the ego that wants to find loopholes in these thought forms. You know what if free will existed and there was some idea of fate or destiny that literally is DNA it's a blueprint for some plan that's laid out for you. All of that can coexist and I think what I came to in the Seeker is we're meant to co-create with the gods our free will our agency is there so that you can look at fate or destiny as planned maybe again through DNA or whatever something that's already in motion you know people I don't know if that's making sense they they're it's like they're looking for a reason to not have faith in the magic that we're talking about. A lot of a lot of competing things coexist that's all yeah or the or there's the fear in

Authentic Voice Versus Inherited Beliefs

SPEAKER_01 43:58

it too.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

So with with that because because a lot of things do influence right which we've already established um and what we've experienced and so I'm wondering since you both of you have worked with you know different creatives um I'm sure you've heard this question how do I distinguish my authentic voice from all the voices I've internalized what is there a difference really between what I believe and what I've learned to believe I'm gonna jump in uh right away because a lot of the book is about that and I think we are a product of the stories we're exposed to that's a big premise of this podcast the narratives we're exposed to they shape us some of us have an internal

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Locus of control, and some of us have a more external locus of control. You know, we take responsibility or we deflect. But I think that that maybe is what finding your voice is, is and I think we're be all being called upon to do it, to connect our particular subjective dots and what we've been exposed to. And then again, I know he's problematic too, but Hegel's dialectic says you're always synthesizing. You're taking maybe cognitive dissonance or opposing thought forms and synthesizing them into new novel thought forms. That, in my opinion, is what we're being called upon to do. So if I connect different dots from my personal experiences than Joan, right, or Virginia, that's what I'm being called upon to express as one thread in this huge tapestry. I'm not being called upon to send, you know, to express Joan's thought forms or Virginia's. I think we're all meant to contribute to the collective or the tribe with our personal subjective experience. Because all of it helps humanity evolve and move forward and it and adapt. That makes sense. We're all sifting through, like, oh my god, did I learn that in church? Should I write that? Should I like should I redact that one or not? But I I writing the book felt like, oh, I'm being called upon to connect my dots, nobody else's. And yeah, take 50 at that point, 56 years of life experience um and make sense of it.

SPEAKER_04 46:12

So what I think I'm hearing in there is that you're you're looking at all the different stories, narratives that have come about throughout your life and shifting through it and finding which ones you subscribe to.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Isn't that what we're all doing all day, every day of our lives?

SPEAKER_04 46:28

Or should be.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Oh, yeah. Some people don't like to examine, that's for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Yeah. We do have those. Um any any thoughts on on what Nick said? What what with the fact that there's people who at who do question that in in the creative, you know, realm of is it really my authentic voice versus an inherited voice that I'm just re-projecting out?

SPEAKER_02 46:52

Uh to me, it's one simple word, intuition. You know, if you're in tune, if you can relax enough to hear your intuition or start trusting your intuition and have enough experiences where you went, I intuited that. Why didn't I follow that? You know, that sort of thing. The more you relax and hear your intuition, that guides you. Because, you know, in the end, no one knows anything.

SPEAKER_05 47:16

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

There are no answers to all the questions. And I think our ego needs answers and our our spirit needs answers, and we come to we come to a conclusion that feels right for us, and then gives us peace. You know, whether it's right or wrong, we're none of us are gonna know till we're gone and we can see it all, you know, when oh my god, that's how it is. But you know, in the meantime, it just I and I I agree with so much is what's being said, but it's like it has to feel right to you intuitively or just give you peace when you think about it. It's just it doesn't give you peace or is it does it give you angst, you know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

So speaking of intuition, because you know that it is hard, right, for us to to understand intuition. So in the in in the chapter, Nick, you you talk about um how every every artist, every creative goes on this journey, no matter if it's ballet, if it's illustration, if it's singing, that there are the tenets, the the rules by which we grow our found, well, build the foundation of social front.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

I would say there tend to be universal milestones. We're all different, but yeah, there tend to be universal milestones in the shared heroes journey, spiritual journey, and I love that territory. I I I do think we're all unique. And I in my 20s, I would have completely argued against that. I thought one of the most damaging things was thinking we're all alike, but more and more I'm in love with the universal, and that's why I'm the story a storyteller is finding out what's universal, what's subjective, what's culturally relative. And I'm sorry to bat to go on, but uh I am a little slow to the chase, so I sometimes respond later to things that have come, and we're covering so much territory, but I do think one of the I don't know, not the agenda of the book, but one of the thrusts of the book is I am out to dissolve some of the imaginary divisiveness that I see. So I do get technical and I'll draw on quantum mechanics or cell biology, or and you know, some of some people would say, Oh, that's quackery, you know. Uh if I take Eckhart Toll in one breath or Marianne Williamson and it has a spiritual slant, then I'll take you know a principle from quantum physics. That is the exact point, is to dissolve the divisiveness because it's just different lingo for largely the same territory. So when I I guess in all of this, I would say um something I lost it, but um on the micro level, uh if I just keep talking, maybe it'll go back to me. Like if if our thought forms are um unique to us. Oh, I know what it was. It was like we might be the only organisms that have a database of innate responses, right? Our lizard brain literally knows when I encounter red, it's alarming for a reason, it's a survival mechanism, but our prefrontal cortex actually allows us to create new thought forms based on new novel experiences and encode those as well. We might have experiences that nobody has yet had in human history, and the beauty is we get to encode those as well for future generations. That's an epigenetic principle, but we might be the only ones that do internalize through gossip, through dogma, at church, in our educational systems. So that's what we're talking about, maybe is uh sifting through that stuff that we are fully capable of internalizing because we're so suggestible as uh mammals, you know, as like highly evolved mammals. But so I go in, and this is more in the final chapter, story and belief. But I go into Gandhi's principle of like you know, my thoughts become my habits, my habits become my destiny. And it's really clear how none of us are exempt from internalizing thought forms and paradigms, and sometimes uh propaganda. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

Well, and and so like in um therapy, uh the the those those who do narrative therapy, which I know I've talked about narrative the narrative theory um before in here, so it's the stories that we know, right? It's it's the narratives that that we all can agree upon, is is basically usually that universal foundational base because we all morally know going to marry somebody too bad. Um we can all agree, I think mostly on that one. So, you know, there's that. So thinking about that within the creative realm and and finding our voice and learning those tenets, learning the principles, learning the rules of the craft itself, so all that technical stuff side of it. I'm just curious how much do you feel that's so important? So you can rely, going back to what you were saying, John, on the intuition, having that trust and faith, letting the magic come in to be able to twist, break, go beyond those basic foundational truths within that craft.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Well, I guess if there's a heavy need to go beyond, I don't know. I think you just have to be at peace in the moment and then beyond happens. I don't know. I think it just seems like a natural, like like we said earlier, it's it's it's a natural process for us to improve and grow. I think that's what we're here is to for is to grow, but we can't force it back back to the Amazon prime thing. We can't force it or make it happen fat.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

No, I don't know if the Amazon uh example is is a parallel, but I always say God is not Santa Claus.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

Ah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Like he's not there to listen to your wish list, yeah. Yeah, and that's what the surrender is like let me do your will. Let and it sounds lofty, but it just means let me be purposeful to the tribe or the collective. But I also heard something in there, Virginia. Um, there is a parallel, maybe, and this is maybe a more poignant or pointed question for you, Joan.

Influences Museums And Power Portraits

SPEAKER_01 53:36

I heard a parallel that when you're talking about rejecting certain paradigms or thought forms that are, you know, inherent in socialization and yeah, being authentic to your core essence. We're always adopting or rejecting. I think of it as like you're exposed or bombarded, frankly, with ideas all day, every day, whether it's ideologies or dogma, and they either just roll off because life experience doesn't um reinforce them, or you adopt them and you fit them in like puzzle pieces. Thoughts, I mean, beliefs are just thoughts you keep thinking. And you have neural circuits, and if you have a cognitive dissonance, you surely resolve it. So all the puzzle pieces can fit. That's kind of how I look at it. But um, maybe the parallel in the for self-professed artists that are pursuing a craft and connecting it with a sense of purpose, which is finding your voice. If that's somewhat true that we're all on that journey, um, it boils down to influences. Like some artists are very Tori Amos will say, absolutely, Kate Bush influenced me. Other people are more sheepish about it, and they'll say, Oh, like Joan suggesting, I trusted my intuition and it all came together. I really admire artists that'll absolutely say, Of course, Line Decker, um Norman Rockwell, Erte, you know, they'll cite their influences. Do you feel like everything came from within on your journey, Joan? Or did you consciously emulate other artists in your learning process or your growth? Are you do you have influences?

SPEAKER_02 55:11

Oh, a ton of influences. I mean, everything. And that's just being in tune. I mean, obviously, when you go to the museum, you see um, you realize what paintings pull you in and you stop and figure out why. But in life, what pulls you in? When you go for a walk, what pulls you in? You know, when you talk to people, what you know, just analyzing your own, what lights you up in your life, you know, and just start making note what what turns what lights you up in your everyday life. And of course, I've been highly influenced. I've seen so much great art, it just fills my soul that I've been able to connect. And that's how I judge my own art because I've been in front of great art that just uh blows, you know, the energy is so like blowing away that I just, you know, I take it in and I just will never forget it. So if my art isn't giving me a little of that or some of it or more, that I mean that's how I judge myself, you know. But um, but yeah, I think you're influenced constantly by everything, but noticing what you're influenced by is the big thing. Like that's why when I do these power, when I did these power, I'm I I will still do power portraits. I'm just kind of on a uh stopping point right now for a little while. But and when I did uh qu I would talk to people for 90 minutes and ask them a lot of questions, and they're all about you know finding out what their passions are, you know. Like one big question, you know, like if you had two weeks to live, what would you do? You know, that's a real common, you know, it's going around these days. But how many people stop and really think about that? Because it does help you realize what is really important to you, and and then you live your life like that, and that's what's fulfilling. But to answer your question, all those well, the more you're aware of what lights you up, those are your daily influences that the more you absorb that and the more you the more they become your life, the more inspired you feel, the more content you feel, the more fulfilled you feel, the more you can share, give, you know, which is the purpose of life, in my opinion. And um anyway, I think that answer it.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

I'm sure, I'm sure you followed up with a lot of your patrons. It sounds like what you're offering, just a mirror, you know, a mirror, a portrait, and that exercise of discovering what's important to you by answering those questions is a nudge in their growth. Do you see that? Like they they evolve as a result of engaging in that process with you, the power portrait process.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

Yeah, they continue to tell me how much it it constantly inspires them. And and at the at the end of the talk, the 90-minute Zoom conversation, they said this is like a personal growth session.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

Right, right. You and Virginia are in the same trade, but also having it on the wall as a reminder.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

Yeah, and so then when I put everything that we talked about on in a visual reminder, like it, it uh yeah, they they constantly tell me how it inspires them. But I haven't really asked them for specific stories, you know, but they just say how it inspires them.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

I think it's a no-brainer, of course it does. But I'm I'm just gonna add one more thought, something you said in there. Um, I think knowing who your influences are, who you respond to, that's a big motivator for artists because oh my god, I want to be part of that. I had the same, I had an epiphany at the Sistine Chapel as well, and I'm sure it differed from yours, but you just want to be part of a tradition. And I do feel like those artists that move me feel like kindred spirits. I feel like we share something on a soul level, and it's very comforting to me. Um, I just thought I'd throw that in there. And maybe there's a discovery process too. You're if I said, Oh, I love pre-Raphaelites, I think Greg Spelenke and I share that.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

Why?

SPEAKER_01 59:04

What is it? It's the worldview at the end of the day. It's the values, right? And the um yeah, the the the ethics, the morals, the values, the worldview of those artists. That's what you really share. And it's expressed through a given style, maybe. Anyway, but we'll never know. Some of it's the mystery you're talking about, and the magic. I don't know what weird combination makes me like minor chords more than major chords, or like sort of uh the beauty and the decay in artwork rather than puppies and daisies and rainbows. I think your sense of in aesthetics is largely inborn, it might evolve, but that's the magic and the mystery, maybe just bringing everything full circle here.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Well, like you said, I I think the key is is noticing that you're inspired by something, but then questioning it a little deeper, just to understand yourself that much more. Why, yeah, why not? And if you don't want to question yourself, then you just have to follow your intuition, I guess. You know, I don't know, I don't know if that fits, but I really like the pushing it further. Like when Sistine Sealing, you know, made me blow away and I couldn't even stand. That was the mess. I was 19, and I I was raised Lutheran, so I was kind of religious and stuff. But to realize that spirituality like that just blew me away told was a very clear message that that was nothing that inspired me more in my life. So I feel like that was my goal was spirituality. You know, what is that all about? What is that, you know? So just noticing and then pushing, like you said, to notice that movement. Um, and why we we need we need to ask a few more questions why I think it's fun, at least fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

You're an interesting duck, though, because you you always end up back on intuition and just joy and bliss and being in the moment, but you're capable of examining, you know, and um maybe it's both. Who knows? We're not trying to prescribe an approach to life here. I don't think, but um, it's fascinating, all of it. I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Well, that that's been my big battle in life is like I come off kind of, I don't know, especially when I was young. I was concerned that I was coming, I don't know, dinghy is the word. Oh no, you know, la la la. Kind of the Pollyanna and stuff. And inside I'm so serious and so focused, revenant, no partying, no social life, no, you know, just work, work, work, get my skills down, you know, work, work, work. But I'm like, la la la, you know, but always been that combination. And like even when I started the power portraits and I was putting my website together, I got the business advice to say, get rid of happy girl. Oh no, no, no, I was like, oh my god, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

It sounds like a little bit like a left-right brain thing, you know, or intellectual and analytical versus just uh whatever the opposite is. But I love it. You know, that's your gift, is you inspire people through your joy and your bliss, and I say keep it up. And you know, we just lost Dolly. I can't not acknowledge that. And I feel like Dolly, or I sorry to change the subject, but she exuded joy in the same way that you do, and it's definitely an example to other people about what's possible. I think when we, you know, Princess Diana was the only other time I really couldn't stop weeping over somebody I had never met, and same thing, I couldn't stop crying yesterday over Dolly Parton. And I think it's obviously the gay community. Um, is she an ally of the gay community, so we relate on so many levels there, but I think it's the example and the capacity and potential and humanity that they represent and model for us. So when you lose somebody like that, especially in today's grim political climate, it's it's a real loss for humanity. Sorry, am I off topic here?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:01

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

You and Dolly keep me going. I'm all I'm saying, and maybe Jane Fonda.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Well, you know, last month, a homeless person as I walked by said, You look you are like Dolly Pardon. And I was like, Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

That's a compliment.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

I think that is such a huge compliment. Thank you. But you know, kind of back to the comment about me owning that who I am. Like I'm happy, girl, and I'm very serious and deep, I guess you'd say, you know, like, but uh whatever the word is, you know, I I explore and I take things so seriously. Um, but the owning, like we all need to own, like you, like you said, all the sides of you. We need to own that instead of judging it, you know, so and letting other people judge it.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:48

Right, right. Yeah, which you know, anyway. Virginia therapist.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:53

Yeah. Well, I was also gonna say, would it be fair to say that um by owning all parts of you, um, which is again that self-compassion, right? That self-love that we talked about earlier, um, at the beginning, also allows your you to find your voice because you are a whole person.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

Well, it's back to loving yourself, yeah, or or you can't move forward. I mean, I I can I still remember listening to that tape driving, and it was like, if you don't love yourself now, you won't you won't move forward, you know. You just stay stuck in that place of where you are, putting yourself down. And and so, yeah, so you have to love yourself and accept it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:34

Exactly. And and and and I'm thinking too with that, so yeah, now my therapist brings kicking in, I think. Um is would it be meeting yourself where you're at in this present moment to therefore discover your voice? Because it's that it's that realizing there's still growth and potential, but also loving who you are in that moment at this time.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

I'll jump in. I think you're on to something because I think a lot of people spend, and I'm not exempt from this, a lot of time digging in the dirt. Sometimes I say everyone could benefit from therapy, a lot of people should go to therapy. But we all know when you're perseverating or beating old, tired, threadbare drums, I call it, or old narratives, you know, in indulging old narratives, and when it's time to move on. I do think some people look forward, and that's a beautiful thing. Who do I want to be? Rather than saying, what do I want to accomplish? You know, New Year's is a good example. What do I want to accomplish this year? How about who do I want to be this year? So I love people that are forward looking. Is that a phrase? But I think you don't get to do that if you don't know what makes you tick. There's people that are wreaking havoc on those around them because they never took the time to examine. So I think it's a balance, you know. I remember when I was in therapy the first time, I said, Well, how will I know when I'm done? And she said, Oh, you'll know, you'll know. Uh, she was new too, so I don't know that I trust that wisdom. But I do remember going, I was in um La Paz, Mexico, 83 degree air temperature, 60 degrees in the water, swimming with sea lions. And I was just in the moment. Talk about bliss. And actually, the eagles were being blared by the diving instructors on the dog. And I was like, oh my God, it is time to stop digging in the dirt and just be in the moment. I mean, I went to therapy later again, but it was clear to me when it's time to stop digging in the dirt. But maybe, like we said, and I think I in my twenties, maybe. It's hubris, but I did think there were people that lived examined lives and people that were on autopilot. But I no longer think that, of course. I think we're learning different lessons all the time. It just looks different on different people. I do think some people put off the work until they want to get good with God in the final curtain on their deathbed. They might do the spiritual work. But we're all doing it. It just looks different on different people.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:09

So it is it is coming back and meaning mean our souls we are. Um I I think what I also heard in that is there's people who stay in more of a static state because they're not ready to to do the work.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

And what does that mean for them?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:23

Is that just a suspended state of Yeah, you know, you're just you're in that another way to say, you know, people, you know, you get right, we all say this, we get in our ruts where we just that routine is just over and over, and then we stop. And after at a certain point in time, I I think what I was hearing in that Nick is what you were saying is we s we if when we're ready to to look at ourselves, we're like, well, why am I not liking this rut I'm in? What do I need to do to change to shift it?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

But people can stagnate for decades, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:54

Yeah.

Owning All Parts Of Yourself

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

And they re you've said they resist change at all costs. So what does that do to the body, the mind, body, spirit? I'm just wondering if from a therapist's perspective, what happens when you don't take I call them spiritual opportunities for growth? What happens when you don't take your challenges and find the meaning in the Frankel sense or the narrative therapy sense? What if you don't do the work? What is the worst thing that could happen? Do you die?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:18

I I I think you feel like you're dying inside. There's like an internal death that I that I that at least I've seen with clients. Um, I on a on a right, you know, speaking as a writer, I think definitely as a writer, if I if I stagnate, um, and I can definitely say that's been the case because I haven't, you know, put fingers to keyboard to actually sit and work on my own craft and writing in 10 years because I've focused other places. And I've had a few people come back come up to me and they're like, hey, when are you gonna finish that series? You know, you sent me those chapters. I really liked what you started with. Um, you know, I'd love to see where that goes. And I've actually been getting nagged for the past month by my youngest daughter um for one book. And I went back and started reading it and I'm like, well, I know where I wanted to go. Like I remember the old process of what got that that that made me excited about the work. Um yet I'm having to go back into that internal reflection of finding that passion, finding out what's not work why it's not working for me now. Um, so it's definitely asking those questions. So yeah, I think I think it's very much that. And so I I feel that death like, did I lose that ability? Do I not care for you know it you get into that as as you said, Joan, that spiral, right? Where you that self-doubt, that fear starts coming in, um, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

And well, do either of you sorry to jump in, but do you remember the segment of this chapter about Phantom of the Opera?

unknown 1:09:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

Okay, well, that's exactly what that is. I mean, I don't think everybody identifies as an artist, but those who do, if it languishes, if your creative drive languishes, it catches up with you. So I don't know if you relate to that, but maybe you are a true storyteller and that's what's nagging at you. But you know, I I just think that that's a whole separate book, you know. That that's in one of the many voices is like, ooh, what's stopped me from preventing myself? Is this a calling that I want to abide? And yeah, you're a little busy, Virginia. So the reason I mentioned the um Phantom of the Opera, just for listeners, it's a really great template for this idea that you do have a muse or a calling, and it was the angel of music and Phantom of the Opera. And that is survival. Some of us develop that need to express ourselves out of sheer survival. But then I I've said, well, then you and actually I pulled a lot of my students, those that it wasn't safe to express themselves, like in my house. I shouldn't say that, it was a very creative household, but I didn't feel safe because of certain dysfunction. So a lot of artists are maybe um introspective or shy, Frank put it really simply. A lot of my Asian students, there's an entire book about cultural shyness. And so they would say largely it was my way of expressing myself when it wasn't safe to do so otherwise. And that that's a lifeline because you connect with people by consequence and you realize you can move or touch people, then maybe you you and my hunches all turned out to be true. This bore out in these interviews that you then maybe learn to have healthy relationships without the surrogate, but you still have this calling. And in one of my screenplays, I likened it to a moth that's touched and can no longer fly, but they still have to drag around these wings. This is just for listeners. So, what do you do with that? I go into this couple that divorced because she couldn't compete with his lover, his relationship with his art. And this is all ego too, but it can very much threaten relationships. Anyway, Phantom of the Opera is the perfect metaphor for having a calling or a drive. If you don't silence the voices and embrace it, it's gonna nag you for the rest of your life. And yet, your your relationships, your true earthly relationships can compete with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:18

Well, I think I'm hearing in that too is ultimately comes back to when we find our voice, it allows us to to make those authentic connections. And connection is really a lot about what humanity is.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

Well, to further the metaphor, you know, the labyrinth, not the labyrinth, but the catacombs in um Phantom the Opera are very symbolic as well. It's this idea that we all visit the catacombs or Hades, if you connect it back to Persephone, and that's where all germination takes place in the dark, in the shadow. To go back to Thomas More, Joan, like embracing the shadow, it has immense value. So I just think it's a very simple story about how this all works.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:03

So ultimately, what would what when when someone's trying to find their voice, express themselves, find those like-minded people. I'm curious for each one of you, what do you think is probably the biggest disservice, the thing that can be the a thing that a key thing that you've noticed that can keep somebody from from that?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

I mean, for me, it was the insults, you know, like the insult judgment, the you know, the opinions of people that I respected, you know, in college is what I was referring to. The macho, you know, in um judgment that I got at college level, just stayed with me for so long and I couldn't shake it, you know. So it so it's influences of, you know, like like others' opinions. And then you think when you're so affected at a young age, like college is young, and then it later on when in social media you feel like people are judging you in the same way, and and you know, just shaking all that, shaking all that past judgment is I think a huge thing. Okay, your turn.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

Oh no, I love that because I've always said my art is not a competitive sport. Like, I'm not a performer, it's not performative. I'm not competitive. I wish I was, but I was the youngest of four kids and ten grandkids. So I learned to have intrinsic value within and not compete. Do you know what I mean? Growing up, like I would do I would win the presidential physical fitness award every year, but I I didn't like team sports because it was me against my own potential. And I I actually see competition as very ugly, and it's something I'm working on, but it's so ugly to me that I never reconciled it. So I'm just relating to you a little bit in the there is a good old boys' network, by the way. There's a reason women were written out of the art history books, right? And so I relate to that because it's ugly to me, and there are male artists that use it to get chicks, they'll bring their sketchbook to a bar to get chicks. There's a shaming that goes on if you're not competitive about your artwork, and it's the furthest thing from my mentality. So I relate to that. But I I will say, in the research I've done, some of which plays into the book, one of the biggest voices is it's impractical. Art, the pursuit of art, the pursuit of your muse or your calling, a, it's seen as selfish and self-indulgent and impractical. My sister did a screening of a film called Who Do You Think You Are? And it was the female version of that. You're supposed to be all things to all people and have a baby on your hip and get dinner on the table by five or six o'clock, right? And how dare you! How dare you indulge your silly art? So men have their own version of that. Trust me. We're socialized to be breadwinners and to put roofs overheads and food on the table at all costs, and it's seen as sissy. It's just another version of the same thing. It's impractical. Are you guys following that at all?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:11

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:11

So I think that's one of the biggest voices people need to overcome to get your parents to allow you to go to art school, especially in those Asian cultures. Those parents that allowed their children to go to art center and paid the big bucks, frankly, had given up on their children. Like they're never going to be a doctor or a lawyer. So let's let them indulge their silly habit of drawing. Okay, I'm gonna shut up now. But I think that's that's a big hurdle, is like giving yourself permission to do it despite parental disapproval, despite societal shaming, all of that.

Judgment Practicality And Perfectionism

unknown 1:16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:44

So I guess I'm hearing like the fear of judgment, the rejection, being wrong, losing belonging, being viewed as unsuccessful, really can be stifling to letting that creativity blossom and grow and allow you to be curious and in the magic.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:02

Well, falling short, you hinted at disappointing or falling short. I think that some perfectionists don't embrace or find their voice because they're so hard on themselves and they fall short of their own expectations. People that don't complete, everybody's got a novel under the bed that's collecting dust. People whose creative ventures don't see the light of day are often trapped in a cycle of perfectionism. And it is not only fear of reception by a public, but it's fear of falling short of your own vision. So that's kind of a separate topic, but I do think a lot of people need to quiet the voices of doubt around um just art being impractical. When frankly, I think it's the most important thing. You know, I'm gonna quote Family Ties from the 80s, and I do it in the book too. Alex Keaton. Remember Nick, the artist? It's Mallory's boyfriend was an a slacker artist.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:00

Yeah. And he said, I guess the Michael J. Fox character said, Well, what are you gonna do with your life? You know, you're just a slacker artist, and why don't you do something with your life? And uh Nick says, ironically, Nick, right? Says, You mean like you? Well, yeah, Alex says, I'm going to medical school. I'm gonna save lives. And Nick's answer was, but what are you saving them for?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:25

Talk talking about that, because I mean that's that's one of the big things with artists, right? Is like you said, you can't leave it underneath the bed collecting dust, you know, in the back closet in the storage unit that you're paying for monthly, so you don't have to see it. Um if you put it out there into the world, I guess I always the next question is well, you know, now who's owning the meaning of of what I created, the story, the narrative, the voice in which I just put out into the world. How how do you see that playing out?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

When when it gets I think I understood that. Joan, did you follow that or do you have anything to say about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:59

Um my my reaction is go for it however they want to interpret it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:06

Yeah, you can frankly can't control it anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:09

But yeah, because I wonder if that's if that's one of those things that keeps people from finding their voice or holding on and silencing their voice because they're worried.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:18

Well, that's what I meant. The fear of reception.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:21

Um, fuck them. Fuck them if they can't take a joke. No, no, I'm kidding. I think I you know, there's commercial ventures and there's mainstream ventures, and there can be investors. And so if you want to make bank at the box office or bestseller status, that's a very real thing. But that's one type of art that some would argue intersects with commerce, right? But within reason, if somebody's just following their muse and following inspiration and expressing themselves, maybe in the fine art realm, then there's still the gallery owners to please and the patrons to please. And so that's like again a whole nother podcast about making ends meet. Nobody wants to be a van Gogh who's appreciated posthumously and loses an ear in the process. So legacy is ego-driven. But I think we all want it to land and we want the circuit to be completed, whether that makes for a sustainable career or not. These are long conversations. But I do think, just in terms of the creative process, tell me if you relate, Joan, it's like you a cat control. There's a whole book, you know, and a whole school of thought called The New Criticism that says the artist's intentions don't matter academically. It's all the projections of the patron and the attributions of the patron that make art significant or give it merit. All these horrible words. I personally try to find the universal. I try to find out what's subjective, what's culturally relative. I know who I'm trying to reach, whether it's a readership or a patronage. And I don't want to reach all the people all the time. That's not what I'm on the planet for. Sometimes it's an elite few, or I want to speak to fellow artists, or I don't know, uh, people that are like-minded politically, and I don't care to reach to people I've given up on. I'm kidding, that's the political one. But beyond that, you can't control it. I love accounting for the projections of the patron. I use that silly diamond example in one of my films. There was a diamond, and everybody that wrote in the book at the premiere got it. They got my intention. Ooh, it's meaning, it's truth, it's beauty, it's redemption. I loved the different wordings people used. I've had students interpret my writings in their own way, according to their own beautiful flair. It's the most satisfying thing in the world to me to see, ah, they got my intention, but according to their own worldviews, and there's nothing more beautiful than seeing how they how it landed with them. It's all dance, isn't it? It's always like uh leave room for their projections, but also hopefully communicate your intention, and that's whatever your inspiration was.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:57

I I just think it's important that an artist um do their art first, you know, like be authentic, what they're doing, and then find their audience, you know, rather than thinking, you know, I'm finding your thinking you want to appeal to a certain audience. I'm not sure that's applies to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:13

No, the cart is before the horse. You know, I'm I'm a snob, I'm an elitist. So the whole book is about let's call this propaganda, let's call this for the almighty dollar, and then art is way over here. But do you do hope it lands with people? I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:27

I know, I think it's very challenging. I I would imagine it'd be very challenging for an artist if they were very authentic to themselves and they put it out there and they get no response or negative response or something, and like to brush that off and keep going. I think that word that would just be like a Van Gogh. I think that would just be Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:47

Well, Virginia, you've asked that a lot. You've asked that question several times on this podcast.

Rejection Thick Skin And Audience

SPEAKER_04 1:22:52

I have. Um, because the biggest thing, like, so when I used to a long time ago, um like that long time ago, um, gosh, I think it was like 15 years ago. So I used to teach for the community education side of what is now known as Utah Tech out here. It was Dixie University at the time. Um, I taught a an intro to writing class. And um, so you get all the just doe, you know, doughy eyes, you know, students sitting out there of all ages, just like, oh, tell me, you know, what what what do I need to do to like break into this thing called writing and become, you know, the next best selling author in the face of the planet? And the first thing on my mouth was always like, Do you have a thick skin? Because rejection's real. And if it and I and I love that you both address that, you know, writing to a specific audience, yeah, you can do that, you can go through those mechanics and do it. However, are you gonna feel the satisfaction? Are you gonna feel self-fulfilled in the fact that you're really litting, going back to what we're saying, your true authentic voice shine through? Or are you just a cookie cutter, you know, baking versus creating something unique and original that will somehow find its way into the right hands of who's gonna appreciate it and love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:19

I think finding your voice is what saves you from all that. Yes, I it would be crushing if you felt, oh my god, I took a lifetime of emotional experiences and thought I found my voice, but crickets, right? I put out my book and crickets, that would be crushing. But for me, um I mean, I've been very lucky. I've just been lucky. When I've gotten negative, I I had one uh Mormon from Utah, which like considered the source, didn't like some of the principles I was espousing in The Nameless Prince. And uh at the time, the uh publicity gal, forget what you call it, um, you know, she handled all my interviews and very, you know, lined up a lot of uh I guess um blog at the time. It was blog guest blog posts and talk radio interviews. That's how I met you, Virginia, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:16

And I just want to let people know it was not me or anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:20

No, I just mentioned it because of the Utah connection. But she uh she hooked me up with somebody that very much literally said straight out the gate, I'll review this manuscript, but I'm a strong Chris. She she said a strong Mormon. And she goes, It's gonna compete with my beliefs, and she gave it to her anyway. So we knew it was coming. But she said something like, If I could keep my eyes open long enough to continue reading, like she mentioned putting toothpicks in her eyes to keep them open, to continue reading my book, but it was so creative and so mean-spirited that you can't take it seriously, and it was clear that she wasn't going to be receptive. So I truly get to the point. I we all want to listen to feedback and we all want to up our game if it's remotely commercial. And I think listening to feedback is everything, but sometimes you just have to go, okay, it's not for them. I'm so okay saying my work is not for everyone. That saves me a little bit from being crushed. I think developing there is a whole nother podcast and a whole nother book on that thick skin everybody fantasizes about. I think you know, you talk to Madonna and she's like, I still don't like negative feedback in the press. But I think that we can talk more about it on another episode because I don't think it's bravado or ego to get to the point where you say, Well, I did honor inspiration, I did feel aligned. And again, wild horses couldn't have kept me from expressing that thing that the universe demanded from me. Nothing can erode that. If I get negative, and I've been very lucky again, the little bit of negative feedback I get on something I felt was just a direct expression that couldn't have been more authentic. I just go, Well, it wasn't for them.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:04

Yeah. And and it could be also at the time, even though you're inspired, and and let me know if you guys feel this. When you're inspired, like you're in the moment and you're in tune, and when you release it out, those who come across it aren't in that phase of their life or they're connected.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:23

There could be a million reasons they don't connect. A million that's why you don't bother with it. Yeah, who knows?

unknown 1:27:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:31

If somebody I really respected and admired told me I sucked, that would be a different story. Okay, Joan. Do you deal with worrying about the reception of your work? It's usually for the patron these days, right? Not letting you off the hook, in other words, we we're bringing this to a close. But I'm sure you care. I you care about how the work lands. Rob Zabrecki did come on and he says you you create for yourself first, period. And I think that's true. That's how it is an authentic expression of your subjective experience. But of course, he wants the circuit to be completed, and he talks a lot about passing the baton and what he does is live. So he talked about this. Do you remember that, Virginia? This one trick where they're they're they're up there, the spotlight is on them, the whole room is looking at them, and he does this trick, then he hands the string to them and tells them to do the same thing. And of course they can't do it. So he gets a lot of very funny responses. But I loved that because it's literally passing the baton on to the next person. He took his life experience and made meaning out of it, then handed it to the next person as a challenge to do the same thing. So even he he he said, You create for yourself first, but clearly he wants. The circuit to be completed. So where do you land on that? I'm guessing you want to satisfy the patron.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:51

You asking me?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:52

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:55

Um, the patron. I like you know, I I'm trying to think who the patron is that well, don't they commission you to do power portraits? Oh, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Yeah. I'm the I go back to Michelangelo and like they paid him these huge sums of money for these huge.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:10

Well, I wish I wish we had patrons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:13

And then there's the pay anyway. Yes, I I do, I do uh please the patron. And um, but that but to me it's um because I'm con I I say my power portraits, I connect to who they are, you know, like I be like an actor becomes that that role. So I beg and I I take it on as a challenge when I'm creating art for someone who's not like me to get into that role, like an actor does. I get totally immersed in that energy. So to me, it's a creative challenge and spiritual and energetic challenge to get into that space. So, yes, and I do I do ask their permission along the way if they're if they like it, because I think it's important, but um, because you know, they're the one hanging on the wall, it has to speak to them. So, like, you know, but um, but they like my art to begin with. So that that's that's that's a huge thing. I mean, if they don't like your art from the game, they wouldn't even hire you. But I always that's one of my questions. Why did you ask me to do your art? What about my art? Do you like? One one of my favorite comments, like these days, without not talking about the power portraits, is when somebody really goes crazy like liking it, I go, it's just so beautiful that this is a reflection of your soul. You know, it's like this is uh you're you're talking about yourself, like what you see in my art. And we we understand that, but I just more and more people need to understand that that when they are crazy about something, it's because I'm expressing something that they're feeling, and I'm putting it in a different form. And I just want to remind people. So I I love that it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:48

I think everything in our environments, everything we hang on our wall says something about us.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:53

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:53

Do you guys do either either of you know the parlor trick? It's a fun game, it's a lot like how you find your drag name or your porn name. That's one of those parlor, I not parlor tricks, but uh what do you call it? A party game, the one where you write down your favorite animal, four words to describe it, your favorite color, four words to describe it. Have you guys ever seen that?

SPEAKER_04 1:31:13

Yes, I've seen it, and it's flustered on Facebook too, or any social media people do it too. You'll see it every so often.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:21

It's been around forever, yeah. But I love it. I I'm probably gonna get it wrong. You can correct me, Virginia, but I think your favorite animal, all the adjectives you write down, and they don't, you know, if you're conducting the game, you don't tell them what it represents. But after writing the adjectives, I think the animal is how you see yourself, and the color is how you think others see you. Is that right, Virginia?

SPEAKER_04 1:31:46

Yeah, if I remember correctly, because everybody used to always think I was interesting because I was always a panther and I was always a black panther.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:52

And what were the adjectives? Sly, stealthy.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:56

Uh usually it was um observant. I'm trying to remember now. Gosh, she's like testing my brain. Um, observant, crafty, independent. Everybody's going, Oh yeah, she's totally describing herself right now. Um I can't remember what the last one.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:14

It's really telling. It's never been wrong. I somebody picked a dolphin and it was like playful, and I it was so right on the money. I did an intuition workshop, by the way, a block away from my last apartment at the philosophical research center. And to bring it full circle, Rob Zabrecki just performed there. But yeah, I just was wandering. I had time one day and I saw a flyer that said intuition workshop. And it was one of those synchronicity moments where I was in the moment, as we said earlier, and just following whatever the universe wanted me to do that day, I was free to do it. So I just ducked in there and got hooked up with a complete stranger, and you're supposed to look at your partner and close your eyes and envision an animal. And they said lion. And I don't remember why, but I remember it didn't feel right initially, but then slowly over time, I I was like, I'll I'll accept that.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:08

So so I'll be in line, you know, like at the grocery store, or you know, like at the at the exercise place. If anybody wants to get into a conversation in the shortest way, I start asking them questions like, What's your favorite animal?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:22

I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:24

And I go, look, go look it up online, you know, like look, what's the spiritual definition, or what's this, you know, and and it's a reflection of you. And they go, Oh my gosh, they'll tell me later, you know, I looked it up, it's so true. And then, or I'll ask the most random people, like if you had two weeks to live, what would you do? And I mean, I've had feedback like I I asked the post office lady that the other day, and she goes, I'm gonna have an answer for you next time. Another person said, You know, because you asked me that was a salesperson, he said, because you asked me that, I'm doing this different in my life. Wow, I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:57

You're an agent.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:59

Yeah, like I just can't help it. Like, you know, when you're in a conversation where normally it's like stupid stuff, you know, like just pass the time and they want to pass the time. You bring up something like that, it's really, really fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:12

Well, I'm sure it throws them off kilter, which is what we need more of in this in this world. We love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:17

I haven't anybody not well. One person said about the two weeks they said, Oh, I just love living in the now. I'm not gonna think about that. And they just refused to know that's cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:29

That's cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:30

Not gonna play. This is neither here nor there, but I had a friend that would well, she's been on the podcast, I won't say any names, but she would see people as animals just all day, every day. Oh, but she was also stoned. I was like, that makes me really to be the only one that's not wasted is really uncomfortable to me because like I don't want anyone looking at me like a lizard, I don't want anyone seeing me as a lizard.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:54

It's funny, that's interesting. Um, okay, so to to to stir it to a close and and and I'm very curious.

Practices To Access Your Voice

SPEAKER_04 1:35:04

Um, so I'm gonna start with you, Joan, and then Nick, you can follow up. When it comes to finding your voice, when you sit down to to tap into the muse and into the creative process, I'm curious what what are the steps that help get you to feel you're in touch with with your authentic voice?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:27

Shall I jump in?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:28

Yeah, I mean, I you know it's so it's so many different things, you know. There isn't one set, you know, rule or pattern or process for me. It's it's my intuition. The random most random things happen in the day, and then I go sketch it or something. It's so it's all different. I don't have an answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:45

Yeah, I think in interviews, especially author interviews, people know what are your favorite writing conditions? Do you have to have a fan on, or you know, and I would say just a coffee shop because I don't remember to eat. So, like, do you like the white noise of people around you? And I think those are kind of silly superficial questions. What are your conditions for writing? But they also ask what inspires a piece. What so we artists know it could be a bird splashing through a puddle, who knows? It could be a dream I had, it could be a material I'm dying to use, and I'm sure you relate to that as a visual artist. Who knows? But maybe, I mean, here's what I will say again, through all the research and interviewing artists and writing the book, that um maybe once you've identified as an artist, and then maybe you've honed your craft a little bit and taken your journey seriously, then maybe you've met this milestone of ooh, this is why I create okay, I'm back in touch with that. So we call that finding your voice. And you might even connect it with a sense of purpose and say, here's what I want to contribute. It's not an agenda, it's not propaganda, but I'm gonna embrace this and own that here's what I'm giving back to the collective. All of that. Then maybe you're primed and you're an antenna in the creative process. Who knew I was so passionate about all this stuff? But in the creative process, one of the steps is identifying the problem to be solved. And then they can come in different orders, but arguably we all then germinate on it consciously or subconsciously. We can lay out three by five cards and start brainstorming or ideating. There's all these steps, and again, looks different on different people. But to me, when it's not a commission or in a school assignment, identifying the problem to be solved is as simple as saying, you know what? I'm an artist, I own that. I'm gonna be an antenna all day, every day, receptive to inspiration from the universe. So then when that bird does splash through the puddle or you see that dapple of light that's so poetic, you're ready to roll. So for me, again, it's always different, like you said, but I know it when it feels inspired. All I can do is honor that inspiration. So I think when you're warmed up, you could you can be an antenna, but you can also be a rusty antenna. So the work that I felt best about, and it really represented growth for me, was uh far from the thick of things, a collection of things I did just for myself. But I felt like, ooh, I'm breaking new ground in my writing, telling the truth more than ever before, telling the good, bad, and the ugly, and not having to put a bow. It was a big thing for me not to write, not a happy ending, but not to write redemptively, to just let it land, the harsh, ugly truth. And so though I sh just really remember that summer so well, but it's because I got some momentum, I got, you know, I warmed up. I think all artists know blank canvas canvas syndrome, you got to tone it, right? And then it feels like, ah, now I can do it. So sometimes I just write on a cocktail napkin just to get warmed up. Nobody's gonna see it. Doesn't matter, the outcome doesn't matter. So, anyway, all these things were aligned, and then I think it felt like I think I'm answering your question. Like, it felt like, well, who else's authentic voice would I be tapping into? So sometimes we feel our there's a lot of things I wrote when I was too young to be writing about it. Like, who did I think I was? And then all these years later, I might pick it back up and go, now I have the life experience to write this one. Do you guys relate to that?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:27

Yeah, so that's where I'm at. Like, I don't know, I feel very confident that with every stroke or every character that I type, that I'm drawing on my authentic voice. It's not even a question. If I'm not, I get up and take a walk. I joke, like, if I can't draw on the seek and petro or some life experience to literally describe something that's not even meaningful, it's just a necessary detail for texture or ambiance. If I can't think of something to draw on, I'll just take a break and go for a walk.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:57

Yeah, and and and let and let the mind basically declutter itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:01

Yeah, so that I can get back in the zone, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:40:04

Yeah, yeah. No, and I that's that's exactly how I think it's why I walked away from mining for the last 10 years, is for that reason. My mind was cluttered with too many other things to where it it just couldn't tap in anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:15

Yeah, you don't have the luxury of settling into the zone. But I do for listeners, I'll say just get to know the creative process because I think not understanding it is where people hit a wall. Like Dave Zaposky talked about the warm and cool. Oh, it feels so inspired initially, but you know what? Executing this thing is a bitch. Like you have to understand if it was inspired to begin with, that will transcend. So you get through what he calls the hot and cold, and like all the left and the right brain. Sometimes you are just rendering, sometimes, and I love rendering, it's very meditative to me. Joan, do you ever find you're executing something and it's lost its uh initial burst of inspiration?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:57

I've had people call it the messy middle.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:00

Yes, yes. Virginia said that earlier.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:02

Yeah, yeah. And I that I just finally accept because I mean I can't believe I'll be so inspired and so excited and so turned on to the beginning, and all of a sudden I'm like, this is horrible. I need to throw it away. And then I just stick with it, and it turns out to be a not a master, but you know, a good piece. And I'm like, wow, I just have to stick with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:21

Faith, faith, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:22

And real quick, I want to say I focus on feelings more, which is why I kind of call myself a visionary artist because of my my inspiration comes from within and from feelings more than observation or you know, so I just want to throw that out.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:36

Huge difference.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:37

Yeah, I'll say feelings are energy. So that goes back to you talking about, you know, the energy and it feeling magical, because that's one thing I I did not understand as a writer that I do understand now as a therapist, um, is how emotion needs to move through us. And I had heard that, and I always love the that quote from Hemiway about, you know, um, it's about slicing your wrist open and letting the, you know, your your words bleed upon the page in the writing process. And I always loved that. And I didn't understand the full totality of what he was expressing until I actually got into counseling and really understood how emotions do run through us and they need to be released. If you keep them bottled up, going back to finding your voice, if we suppress, bottle up those emotions, our voice can't be heard because that is part a good part of what our voice is is those emotions moving.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:31

I I think Virginia's gonna write again soon. That's what I hear. Empowering yourself by yeah, opening your veins or giving yourself permission to just express yourself for the catharsis of others, by the way. You know, that that's a global thing. But within a session, right, maybe you just need to warm up because if you're not feeling something in the moment, it's gonna lack a little something, right? An actor has to get there with all the cameras and all the blocking and you know, and the lighting, and they still have to get there because if they're not feeling it, it's it's not gonna come across. So I relate to that too, like within a session. If I can't draw on my emotions, not the right moment to create. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:15

I always say I have to be super exhausted, so it's really early in the morning or super late at night after I've had a really long taxing day, to where literally going back to talking about the brain, where my prefrontal cortex, the logic centers can pretty much shut down and go on cruise control or take a snooze, whatever they need to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:32

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:33

So I can allow the thalamus, the hippocampus, and the amygdala to kick in to allow myself to just express because I feel like when the logic centers are on, when the prefrontal cortex is on, that's the voices of doubt, of fear, judgment, all of that starts creeping in.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:54

Do you talk about the DMN a lot in your trade? The default mode network?

SPEAKER_04 1:43:59

Uh we don't talk in those terms.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:03

Um serotonin.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:05

Yeah, we we we talk about that, but we talk about it more in talking sympathetic, parasympathetic, and then um these are all components of getting in the zone.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:16

We're talking about getting the zone. And I will say, like for Joan, bliss came up, and so some people that want to open their veins just need to express their pain, but that's not every artist. Some people want to express bliss, and um, but I do think maybe getting the zone is is what we're talking about, whatever it is you need to express. You sound like Renee, my sister, by the way. You remember her saying she has to wallow on the floor before even putting pen to paper, like get in the fetal position, cry under the carpet. That's her thing, it ain't my thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:46

I have to shut my inner critic down. And anybody who does therapy will understand exactly where that just came from in modalities.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:54

But yeah, well, we artists, that's what we've been talking about this whole hour and a half is shutting down the voices of doubt that can inhibit

Messy Middle And Closing Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 1:45:03

you. Anyway, I think uh it's been what uh almost two hours?

SPEAKER_05 1:45:07

Yes, Joan.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:09

It was really good stuff. I know I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you went back and forth between resisting the the degree to which we're analyzing this. But I thank you so much for your your words, they're really gonna be helpful for listeners, I think. And they were inspiring to me. I'm walking away with um thank you. Yeah, the two words magic. Just trust the magic and passion is your magic. Oh, that's my other the other word.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:36

Yes, passion is and and I love and I love that because it really reminded me when I again I especially when I taught um picture book writing, which is where I started as a writer, um, was telling students that we we we forget the awe and wonder of what it's like to be a child five and under. And so to get to literally talk about Renee laying on the ground, laying on the ground and looking at the world at a child's eyes, because it opens up the world in a whole new way. So I love that when you talk about you know, pat you know, passion and magic, it it really made me think of that lesson that I would teach then.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:16

I love that exercise, it's great.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:19

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:22

All right, thank you, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:25

Thank you so much. This is great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:27

I love the note we ended on. Okay, thank you guys. And to our listeners, remember life is a story, and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively. We can tell a new story. See you next time.