Beyond the Binary: Modeling Uncharted Territory through STORYTELLING

It's human nature to 'flatten' a dimensional world into binary categories we can easily comprehend. Similarly, there is often a price attached to nuance and complexity. In this episode, we explore the impulse to enforce limiting tropes—from gender roles and relationship models to labels and institutions—frankly, every aspect of the human condition. In this episode, Dominick and Virginia draw from the literary realm and cinema as well as current events and headlines, to discuss how more empowering models are emerging...aspirational ones.  

We also dig into how pop culture— streaming content, in particular— is rewriting the script with more diversity and nuance than ever, including platonic intimacy between men, fathers trying to show up differently, and characters whose identity is treated as matter-of-fact rather than a spectacle. Along the way, we ask bigger questions about conservatism, rigid gender roles, and what becomes possible for society when people are free to be authentic, contributing their gifts to the collective without hypocrisy. 

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:45

Hi, guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul Podcast, where life is story. Today, Virginia and I have decided to just fly solo again. Some of you that listen in regularly might recall that we've been kind of motoring through the chapters of the book that inspired the podcast, and then having some of our favorite guests come back and do roundtable discussions about those chapters. Well, we decided to start sprinkling in something that we've always wanted to do, which is really just taking current events or news stories and you know, a Netflix show here or there that's become a cultural zeitgeist, and just talk about all the levels on which story operates in society to shape our norms and mores and codes that

Why A More Casual Format

SPEAKER_00 1:30

we live by, and just you know, do slightly more casual conversations about pop culture, or at least I've kind of always wanted to do that. And um, I'm gonna turn it over to Virginia pretty quickly, but I I will say one of the reasons I've wanted to do that is uh I'll give a shout out. One of my favorite, not that I'm a huge podcast listener, but among those that I do listen to regularly is So You Think You Know, I think is the title of it. And uh, I just love hanging out with them. It feels like you're hanging out with some friends and you know, getting to uh be a fly on the wall a little bit. And they just kind of don't discuss the topic too much. They both go off and do their research, but they'll pick a topic like, oh, the McDonald's lawsuit, the hot coffee lawsuit, if anybody remembers that. I think it was mid-90s. But it it was a milestone in becoming the litigious society that we are now. And they'll take that story, both go away and find the real truth that didn't make it in the history books, and come back and say, Well, what you don't know is she actually did have, I think, second-degree burns. It was not a frivolous lawsuit by any means. There was some real meat to the case, and uh it didn't get written that way in the history books. So it's kind of the story behind the story. But more importantly, I just love their banter and it's rather light. So we get pretty academic when we discuss the book. This is a chance to just chat a little bit. Okay. Uh Virginia Grenier is patiently waiting in the green room while I babble. So I'm gonna invite her in to run the show. Welcome, Virginia.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Thanks. Um, and and yeah, I know we were kind of talking about doing a little bit uh, I guess a lighthearted we could go with that, um, type of show. And a lot of it is just because as we've been going through the chapters of the book, um, Language of the Soul, we've just kind of started talking a little bit more off, you know, podcast, uh, you and I, just about, you know, this just storytelling and storytelling in general. And a lot of that, you know, has come up, you know, the shows that we watch, the characters we've been connecting with, um, the ways those stories give us models for understanding people who um have lived before us, um may have lived, loved, identified, or even moved through the world so differently than I would say what we'd call

Storytelling As A Social Mirror

SPEAKER_01 3:49

our heteronmative social norms, right? Of of life. Um, and we're seeing that a lot more. I know you and I have talked about a few shows that um feel like they're a little bit more inclusive and showing society as how it is now versus well, what you and I grew up in during the 80s and and you know, early 90s, so or late 70s through early 90s, I would I should say. Um and so it's been nice. And I think it's important because today, when we look at the stories we're given, the roles that we inherit, the categories we're we've we're used to um putting people into so we can understand our world and one another. I think what we're starting to realize is a lot of the time um it's way more complicated. And unfortunately, on a societal level, a lot of the times it often collapses into a very different um conversation because of the collapsing of the different layers of life.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Hello, you use the word flattening as well. I like that idea. Yeah, we really simplify the nuance out of life into binary categories so that we feel more comfortable. Yeah, and I mean I didn't mean to interrupt you, but no, no, you're fine. And I you're right, because I like flattened because it takes the dimension out of life, out of, you know, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, no, you're right. And I think that's why you see that diversity happening when people talk about biological sex, gender identity, gender expression, masculinity, femininity, sexual attraction, romantic attraction, emotional intimacy, what partnerships are, commitment, you know, reproduction, and even social power. Um, and we're all living within those realms, and they're all very different layers to us as humans and how our identity is tied to it.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Well, you said it all. That's pretty yeah, yeah. Every aspect of life, there's the reality, and then there's the binary categories that allow us to function as a society. And um, there's not a lot of room for that nuance, really, but I guess that's what we're here to talk about, right? Like, why do we enforce limiting tropes? Why do we enforce limiting gender roles, for example, or relationship models? As a member of the LGBT community, of course, I have a lifetime of observing what happens when. And that's what I kind of want to get to in the storytelling aspect is there's a lot of there's a whole template about not just moral ambiguity, you know, Lord of the Flies is a great story about what happens when you're living outside the ethics and norms and mories of society. And it's kind of like Survivor, the whole show is based on what happens when you no longer have anyone enforcing ethics or morals. But then there's another template that's more like into the woods that's not about morality, but what happened when happens when you dissolve the constructs, the institutions that society enforces. Well, you get a glimpse of all that nuance we're talking about in the human condition and all that diversity, frankly. So, yeah, I think there's a huge conversation about I guess I'll just go ahead and say it like why we want to enforce binary categories and flatten, as you say. And it's fear. I'm just gonna cut to the chase. It's fear-based.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yeah, I agree. Um and I I talk a lot about that when when I'm in session with people that that that is when we get emotionally flooded. Um, and the emotional flooding is generally tied to our own biases, beliefs, value system, and prejudice, as much as we don't want to admit that that's really where the emotional flooding comes from, because it's how we assign meaning, and you're right, and then we go into the fear spiral, and so it flattens everything out because we can't see the kaleidoscope of beauty around us.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Beautiful. Yep, yeah, there's a lot of and I I just all day, every day, all I see is love

Fear Flattens Nuance Into Binaries

SPEAKER_00 7:57

and fear. Those are opposites to me, love and fear, and it's very survival-based, you know. When when we uh are confronted with something that is a threat rather than an opportunity, it's no mistake that we're wired, right, to have either a growth or a protection response. And I would say judging, you know, fear of the unknown or um demonizing the stranger because you don't understand it, or I'll go into this a little bit more demonizing that one house on your block that captures your imagination as a kid, filling in the gaps, right, with innuendo and demonization and all those things that are so human, it's really um a knee-jerk reaction that's survival-based, but it doesn't mean that we're not evolving out of it. Is that a triple negative? It doesn't mean that we're not free to evolve out of it, we're evolving all day, every day. So some of those tribal instincts to demonize the other or fill in the gaps with gossip or innuendo, the gaps of in the unknown, um, might be obsolete.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, um, and and I agree. And I and I think too, it's also um one thing it doesn't talk about is like our nervous system does a lot, you know, does a lot to just be autonomic. And so it's always so we are wired naturally to scan for threat right for survival instinct. And so that's where I where we have the the a game to the rest of the mammals on this planet is the fact that we've got a prefrontal cortex, right? That allows us that allows us logic and reason, and so we've got to let that come in.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Uh that's that's what I think we're evolving toward, yeah, is using what makes us uniquely human, and that is the ability to deliberate and right, and to not have that knee-jerk survival-based reaction, but to deliberate and actually use intellect to soften that initial knee-jerk reaction that might be a protection response rather than a growth response. We're getting a little academic, but I think everybody probably knows what we're talking about. All day, every day, we have the choice to be in that space of love rather than fear. And the word presence gets thrown around a lot, but that's what we're talking about: mindfulness, presence. We all fail, we all get busy, right? We all yell at drivers and traffic. We catch ourselves doing it all day, every day. Uh, but I strive, not I don't always accomplish it, but I strive to come from a place of fear where my ego doesn't have to step in and protect what I perceive as a threat. You know, when we're not feeling safe, that's when ego steps in and we we act from a a place that's inferior to love, you know, in friendships. Yeah, I screwed up, I dropped the ball, I lashed out, whatever. It's because I didn't feel safe always. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And and and that the interesting thing is is so going into storytelling, I think that's what story storytellers help us understand, right? They're reflecting the changes um in society, but they're also showing us that we need that human connection, which I know you talk about a lot um and mention a lot, Nick, in our shows, is is that we need that connection, be it on the intimacy level, the romantic side, um, sexual attraction, or even platonic love.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Um well, say more because I know I talk about interconnectivity quite a bit, but help me out. What have I said about it?

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Well, you just you know, that the the the thing that always and I think that the when you what do you think about like fear and love or even you know hate and anger, love I mean they sit, they're they're both strong emotions, they sit side by side.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Um hate, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Hate hate might be taught, right? It might be taught in the home, and it is a fear-based reaction, right? To yeah create punching bags in society or scapegoats or demonizing the other. That's what we're calling hate, prejudice. You know, I guess I'll say one example. I had a a close uh I'll say friend that said it's very revealing too when the word homophobia was being used a lot, especially with regard to Christian groups. I'm not afraid, I'm not afraid, I just think it's a sin. Like, well, you protest a little too much, you know. Nobody said we were talking about you. It was very revealing that this person said, I hate the word homophobia because I'm not afraid. I just think it's a sin. It's like, well, you've really worked out that rationalization, haven't you? But I think you mature a little more and you do see that it is fear-based and hate. I guess that's what we're talking about. Hate is taught societally and within the home as a fear-based reaction.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

I'm agreeing with you, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, though, I know. Um, and so just to kind of start stirring us into some of the conversations and just like current events. So, as everybody knows, I'm out here in Utah, I am in southern Utah, um up in Utah County, which is four hours north of me, is the um the pre-trial with Tyler Robinson. And not that I want to get into a whole Charlie Kirk debate because that's not what I'm where I'm going with this, but um exactly. But Lance recently, um, which is the roommate, and it's supposed to be um because nothing has it's been said in the in the media, however, there's no one has definitively said yes, they were in a romantic relationship, but that has been what has been said, and I'm not saying that that is

Utah Courtroom Shock And Trans Visibility

SPEAKER_01 13:48

true or not true. I have no idea. I've not dug in to find out what what they're connected outside of being roommates, how how involved they are, but Lance presented as as Mel and um biological male, which is what he is. Um, and I'm saying he because that's how he that's how Lance presented. However, Lance is actually trans female. So she presented as Mel in court, and a lot of people are like shocked by that here in in Utah, at least because that's where I'm around, right? And it made me stop and kind of think, and I'm going, well, why is everybody like I mean, heck, it's a conservative area. I'm not surprised, but I'm sure the attorney said that. But then I started thinking more like, why is it bothering everybody? I'm going, oh, it's because everybody has a stereotype of what they expected in the court.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Well, what's the speculation though? When they when they're bothered by it, they think that it's um manipulative to try to manipulate you know, try to appease uh public opinion. What's the criticism?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

I don't follow if Yeah, I I guess it's like, well, if you're trans female, why don't you show up as trans feminine? Why do you show up as male? Are you trying to sway public opinion by not showing that's less than respectable? Right. However, then it's like, but if Lance would have shown up as she versus he in presentation, then it would have been a whole nother that's the whole point, right? Then the conversation would have gone completely the opposite direction. It just made me kind of stop and think about it, going back to demonization and othering and what you're saying about um, you know, just within religious, specifically the Christian faith, about um, well, it's a sin, right? To to love the same sex. And I'm going, well, you know, it's funny, my my 16-year-old who actually made this comment. It's like, okay, well, some of that usually comes from, and this is really like the mind of of you know, the bisexual woman here going, okay, so it's really the whole con conversation of okay, so by nature, right, we're supposed to procreate the world, so it's man and and and and female, right? Man and woman to to create child, which by biologically that is true. However, then you hear, okay, so what women are supposed to be here and just be cows to like just no, this is what my six-year-old said. She's that was her concept.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

It's she's like, she's like, so now, so now we're basically othering women to nothing more than being like a birthing center. And well, that's kind of demoralizing. And when she said that, I was like, oh my gosh, yeah, like I get it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Have you seen the handmaid's tale?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yes, and that's exactly where I was going with it. Sorry, okay. Yeah, it's that concept of well, the only the only purpose of women here is basically to just serve man and give babies and and keep the house clean and raise them. And I'm going, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

But that's what came up for me when she we're kind of uh yes, I love all the areas that we're touching on, but to backpedal a little bit, you know, I I've been busy and I haven't been watching the news, but I also have a hunch that you're getting a lot more coverage because you're closer to Provo and because the stakes are higher. I I would say that conservative communities and any Christian communities, including the Mormon Church, are way more invested in protecting rigid gender roles. And we can go into that in a minute. But I think it's making the news because Christian factions, the Christian nationalists of the world, are really invested in preserving some fantasy, frankly, of gender roles and specifically masculinity. So, what I will say is I because I've been so busy on this freelance job, as you know, and I'm really not seeing the news, but I also, again, feel like we're getting less coverage here. I did start watching YouTube videos. I watched Lance Twigg's entire deposition, the one that was on video. It might have been during the grand jury investigation, but they introduced it in court. And I saw the entire interview. I thought, oh, what a handsome gentleman, what a deep voice. Wow. Do you know? Like it's not what I expected, but I thought, wow, he cleans up well to bring back our phrase from a couple days ago. And um what I do know is he did say, it might have been in response to one of the questions, that they were in an intimate relationship. He absolutely said that.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Okay, he did. I must have missed it.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Oh, yeah. No, they started as roommates, then several months in, they began dating and they had separate bedrooms. I was surprised the interview, whoever it was, the deputy, didn't ask why. Why do you have separate bedrooms if you're intimate? But I it was a very simple interview, and it wasn't um sensational and it wasn't salacious, if that makes sense. He was very respectful to Lance, and uh Lance was very forthright, very straightforward, nothing to cling to, ain't you know what I mean? No story there. There ain't no what do they call it? It was a big nothing burger because simple. Oh, we met online through gaming communities, we had similar friend circles, we became roommates, then a couple months in we became partners. He didn't say lovers or partners, we became intimate and we maintained separate bedrooms. But the questions were largely about you know, the drama that was used to engrave the bullets, and I think the line of questioning wasn't salacious at all. Anyway, I'm just correcting that one little thing that uh he did say they were in a relationship. Now, yeah, the speculation around why he would present in court as a male. Well, he said, frankly, I I I did walk out, I went to the kitchen to I don't know, fill my water, and I missed a little bit. But when I came back, I keep saying deputy, but whoever was interviewing him very much said, Do you not present as a a female, trans female? And he said, To certain people, yeah. So he's not fully out as a trans female yet. He chooses the friend groups that he's that vulnerable with. So I don't think there's much speculation to be had about why he would choose to present. Frankly, I don't think it's the end of the world to try to um, I don't know, just um be a non-entity in this scenario, you know, not trying to he did have immunity, so I think he was doing his best to tell the truth, as you know, provided by law, or I guess demanded by law, without doing harm to his friend's case, but also just doing the right thing. And so I don't see anything, there's just not no angle to be had there. If he had presented as a female, they would have been all over it, Fox News would have been all over it. Yeah, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah, and that's that's what I was saying about it. And going and going to that exact conversation of you know, how those stereotypes where we have this idea and you know, and and when I say we we're all guilty of it. We all have those moments where we have an idea in our head due to socialization, whatever that is through, through our families, through our spirituality, peer groups, whatever, society as a whole. Um, have having my oldest being trans. Yeah, Dominique's the same way. Half the half the time she is out in male clothes, and sometimes with very select people, she's comfortable enough to wear the dresses.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yeah, I mean, you could speak to this. I'm guessing it's a it's a process and it's a transition, and wherever they land, you know, 24-7

Stereotypes And The Need To Categorize

SPEAKER_00 21:21

or not, that's really up to them. And uh, I will say I relate a little bit in that, yeah, people want to know what they're dealing with for their own comfort level. As a gay man, I can't tell you it's been a lifetime of when I meet a dude, and I I do want to say this my straight male friends, we say I love you. You saw that with Greg, my friend Dave Zaboski. I'm working for Garrett now, doing the graphic novel, and we end every phone call with I love you. And I I think that's how it should be. We men should be allowed, straight or gay, to express. And I find that my straight male friends feel very freed by being able to express themselves that way. But the point is, you know, like you said, things have changed immensely during our lifetimes. And I remember, you know, in high school and college, if I would meet a guy and we would be establishing a friendship, they very quickly mention boobs or sports, or both. There's a litmus test, right? There's a litmus test, and it you they just need to know, and uh that it's always code. Mention boobs, see my reaction. Mention sports, if I have something to say about it, I'm not gay, and so that's gotten better. I don't think it's as important now, but there were these little rituals and rites of passage, and I I think it's silly, frankly. But my point is, I think. I have a lifetime of observing, they want to know what category to put you in. And even if you're gay, they might not have any judgments about it, but what a loadoff to have a category to put you in. Um, and then you have kind of like women, if they're assertive, they're bitches. Like if you're not a clown, if you're gay and you don't um fulfill that jester role for their amusement, then it's really uncomfortable. So I'm not the most butch creature on the planet, but I have seen if people can't make me fabulous enough. If I don't, you know what I mean, love um to talk about share or Madonna, if I'm a non-seen guy, that's pretty threatening to people. Is that making sense?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

It does. And you know, I want to talk about that because it's it's interesting. Um, and from the fashion industry in the past, um, I knew a lot of gay men and a lot, I didn't I knew a lot of people in in the in under a lot of umbrellas, but did work with a lot of gay men in in the fashion industry. And most of the gay men I knew in the fashion industry were more like you, as you said, you know, weren't you would say, you know, a lot of people were shocked because I don't walk around and I don't, you know, act, I don't talk with a certain way, and I don't have, you know, I'm not like super fabulous. I'm not out there, you know, being, I mean, yes, they're in fashion, but you know, they weren't extravagantly out there in in that stereotype of fabulous, um, whatever fabulous. Yeah, whatever somebody wants to like picture in their head, because I'm not gonna paint the picture because I disagree with it. And I had a few, and I had a few friends who were definitely, you know, more out there um in that category for sure, but they were very few and far between. And I guess because I worked in that industry, it always bothered me when people are like, Are you sure he's gay? I don't know. And I'm going like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like what? Do you think like he needs to be wearing like a pink furry jacket or something? And and I don't know, like a crop top and like leather pants. Like, what's going through your mind? You know, it always bothered me that there was like this image that people had for gay men.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Right. Well, again, it's we like to know what to expect and we like a nice cookie-cutter model that everything is meant to fit into for our own comfort level. And when somebody defies those expectations, it's pretty threatening. Now, I will say the majority of gay men, I can't speak for lesbians, they're pretty invisible, you know. I mean, that's a stereotype as well. They marry, they partner up real quick, get a bunch of cats, and disappear. So they're not as visible and certainly not in the media. But I would say it's decades of yes, making small strides toward representation and visibility and normalization in the media. But yes, the whole 90s were full of florists. Every gay character on every weekly crime show was the florist, you know. And so if it's, and I I will go to my grave saying, you know, when the media covered the gay pride parade, it had to be salacious and sensational. So show the leather daddies writhing on the floats, but don't show the average American Joes that came from the valley to the gay pride parade. So I I don't have the best gaydar, but even as a gay man, I've said my entire life like feminine doesn't equal gay. Uh, I won't say too much, but at Disney feature animation, there were a couple higher ups that people speculated were gay because they weren't the most masculine creatures on the planet. And I would say, okay, but the dude's got a wife and three kids, so until you see a dick in his mouth, he he's whatever he says he is.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

And I agree because that was my policy.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Sorry, I'm I was yeah to finish up. I would I that was my policy, and now I don't even take the time to check in. But I think the irony is that the majority of people, the majority of gay men that you encounter, you don't even know they're gay because you don't know. So all you know are these silly indicators, right? That we're talking about. If you're not fabulous, if you don't have those affectations, which actually were survival-based at some point, but might be obsolete. As a gay man, you know, I remember in the early 90s and my 20s, I went down to West Hollywood, I did my time, but every time I found myself adapting, you know, this inculcation, which does exist, it's not a gay agenda, but like any culture, you you know, lesbians are quickly inculcated or initiated by learning the history of the persecution of the gay community. Uh, with gay men, it's more like I just remember my two gay roommates. We were walking down the street in West Hollywood, and one of them said, runway! And he'd snap his fingers and do this runway walk. And I remember uh I tried it once and I was like, I can't live with myself, I can't do the snap, I can't do the runway thing. And uh I I would say you go to one drag show, you've seen them all. So I just find it it was survival-based, and let's just call them affectations.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Yeah, no, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Well, yeah, it was survival-based, but at some point it's just highly uh unoriginal. So there's a want to belong that you were kind of referring to earlier. So I think when you've spent your whole life being told you're gonna burn in hell in the Midwest, then you come to a ghetto like West Hollywood and you find your peeps, you just want to belong. So a lot of it is mimicry, right? Just to be long.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah. Well, I I think you're right, because I have I have quite a few lesbian friends, and um, I know there's that stereotype where you know they all cut their hair short. And again, you know, they both they wear the John Lennon glasses, it exactly, and and they're and they're and they're yeah, and they're tough, and they're like, you know, like the extreme version of a tomboy, and it's like uh that's not the ones I know. I mean, I do know some who are that way, but that's because they consider themselves more androgynous in how they present.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

They love granola and birkenstocks, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

And then I but then there's you know, um, and I won't say who because I'll keep her name off this, but anyway, she's like, no, I'm a lipstick lesbian. I mean, she's a she's a girly girl, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Well, that I was about to say, and then when it did broaden and diversify, you still have to give it a name like lipstick lesbian. Yeah, so you got your butch lesbian and you got your lipstick lesbian. It's like you still have to label it. And same thing in the you know with gay men. It's like, are you butch? Are you non-seen? Are you a twink?

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah, are you fabulous? Right, yeah, exactly. And it's sad that we have to put again that we're putting things into categories, which um, you know, at the same time, going back to what you're saying, Nick, about um being able to say, I love you. I mean, for women, we're encouraged to do that, right? We're always encouraged as girls, we're encouraged to have feelings. We're told we're the princesses growing up by our parents, generally not saying all of us, but you know, that on the generalizing statements here, um, that that we get to cry when we get hurt and it's okay and we're tender and we're this. And then, and then as boys, it's doesn't matter where you where you were as you're discovering who you are and where you fall um, you know, on the binaries, it's very much the well, you don't have emotions and just suck it up, and you're supposed to be tough, and you know, you can have anger and happiness, and that's probably about it in your emotional. It's just like,

Men Crying And What Families Do

SPEAKER_01 30:30

what, what the heck? So talk to that because I'm I mean, I grew up obviously, I'm I'm a I'm a female, I grew up as a girl. Um, so I would love for you to kind of share what that was like growing up, Nick, as as a as a young boy, and feeling like I have all these emotions because I'm human like everybody, so we all have them, and yet it's not okay to like express them.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Yeah, I have a few things to say about that, and without throwing any generation under the bus or any one person under the bus, you know, I've heard myself say, Well, my grandmother's generation, the women were to be coddled and nurtured, and you just sent the boys out to play and told them to come home before nightfall, and your job was done. So, in the same way that like men were taught, as long as you put food on the table and roofs overheads, maybe a little authoritarian enforcement, your job's done as well. So now we want men to be sensitive and all these other things, but it's still women don't quite know what to do with that kind of vulnerability, if that makes sense. If a man does express himself and have feelings, they claim they want their men to be sensitive, but then quickly, do you know what I mean? They can be alarmed. So I do know the gay the gay thing has nothing to do, you know, it doesn't even play into this. But every male I know remembers the moment when they expressed some vulnerability, and their moms were completely ill-equipped to deal with it. My uh an ex of mine said he just opened up to his mom one time, and it was about just not even gay stuff. It was just like, I'm an artist, I see the world differently. Here's me, here's me in all my colors. And he claims her jaw dropped, and she didn't say a word and left the room, and he was left with a really strong message, and I had a similar experience, and it's it was after a breakup, and I think this is the story you were prompting. I uh, you know, probably the worst breakup, and I thought, oh, I need to find some not consolation, but connection. And I just thought, oh, go back to family, they're unconditional, you know. I was feeling like nothing really helped when you've gone through a breakup. Like physical touch doesn't help, a hug from a friend doesn't help. You're just experiencing an existential crisis, period. But for some reason, I got the brilliant idea to go home and spend time with my family, and it's the worst thing I could have done because you're reminded, like, oh, that's why I'm fucked up. Like, oh, no wonder I didn't succeed in a relationship. No wonder I'm unlovable, and it's easy to spin when you go back to the source of what makes you tick. But that wasn't the worst of it. I think I was just processing, like sitting there going, Ugh, well, they're not going to be any help. Yes, it's unconditional, supposedly. I'm feeling horrible exposing them, but this is probably every family. I just thought, ugh, I made a mistake coming here, and I the tears just started to fall. And my mom, I remember just short of horrified, in the same way that my I'm so trying not to use names, but my ex's mom, her jaw dropped and she left the room. My mom just had absolutely no reaction to seeing a male cry. She wasn't taught that male children have needs too or have emotions too. And I don't blame her. I think she was the best mother, as good as it gets. She was not prepared or taught how to have how to raise boys, period.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, no, and I agree, because um I as as a mom of raising originally a boy, um, I remember when when my you know son at the time would feel emotions.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

It was it took a lot for me to were you tempted to say boys don't cry or repeat some of that bullshit?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Um, no, because I I what what I think stopped me in my tracks from having that right, and I'm I'm definitely not I am not your typical female. I'm I my girls will tell you I'm actually they they'll just say I was harder on them because I they would get the second up buttercup when like things would happen. So I was actually I was actually tougher on them than I than I was on Dominique. And I think because I remembered when I was younger, the first time I saw my dad cry was when my parents, you know, let me know they were getting divorced. I remember climbing climbing up on my dad's lap when he was sitting in the rocking chair in their master bedroom and he just held me and just broke down and sobbed. And I remember then as a little girl thinking, my dad's crying. Like I've never seen a man cry before, and it's my dad, and I didn't know what to do with it. So when I saw Dominique cry for the first time, and this is like above age 10, because moms tend to be a little bit easier when it I think we're when all of our children are under 10 to well, you know, they're under 10, so you expect it, right? But broke down and cried. I almost had that reaction and I stopped myself and went, No, I remember seeing my dad cry and only seen him cry like two times. And I didn't and I didn't feel that was fair. I remember thinking later in life that that wasn't fair. And so I I I just, you know, went and just sat. I didn't try and hug or anything, but I went and sat next next, and I'm saying him because he was boy at the time. And I think that's help. But I think about a lot of the men in my family, like my brother, my brother-in-laws, my own husband, that yeah, it's it's really sad to see that most men, doesn't matter what their sexuality is, really have a hard time feeling that they can be vulnerable like that. And yet, as you said, a lot of women want to want that vulnerability, and then when it happens, we don't know what to do with it. We don't know hold that space, and it's it's sad.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Yeah, I I mean to say that men don't feel safe to express themselves or they don't know how, yeah, it's true, and it's also too easy. I think we don't let them, we don't permit them. We claim we want it, and then we bristle when we see it. So everybody's right, we all contribute to this. Men, women, men themselves obviously have, and that's to steer it back a little bit to our intention here. Let's talk about how masculinity is evolving through storytelling and gender roles specifically, are becoming more diverse through modeling, like you're saying, in storytelling. There are a couple shows that are permitting men to have feelings, to have a diverse range of feelings, to actually express themselves. So we I think we all need to work together on this. We talked about adolescence, that show, Stephen Graham is the creator's name, and he very much had an agenda. He wanted to tell a great story, but he's absolutely invested in allowing men to be human, and actually the way we raise our boys and permitting

New Models Of Masculinity On Screen

SPEAKER_00 37:37

them to be vulnerable, to express their feelings, and to not feel they need to clam up or adopt any of those silly tropes, like boys don't cry. That's what men need to be modeling for their boys.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

I I agree. And I remember when adolescence came out, I was finishing up my master's program at the time. So I was really involved um watching it, especially because a counselor comes in and meets meets with the the main character behind it. Um and so I was I had to go back and rewatch it when we when I was like, oh yeah, I saw it. And and you and I had mentioned that show. Um, because I was more vested on the mental health side of of what that character was doing. Um and when I went back, I went, Oh my gosh, yeah, it's really sad. This this poor boy wasn't turning to his mom or his dad. Um because he wasn't being modeled exactly that the family where the opening that felt safe for him. Um was something that was like, this is allowable. It's like, nope, you just go to school, you hang out with your buddies, you do your thing, oh, getting bullied, people are saying things, but you don't say anything, you just deal with it, you just press on. And you know, it's it's a sad thing to see um happen to any any adolescent child, uh, but especially like you said, you know, going to that masculine side, it's like that provider protector stereotype, those tropes. Yes, men are physically stronger than women. So I understand that when we talk about you know physiology, biology, biology, however, still being able to express that tenderness both ways helps with that connection. And connection is so important to where if we can connect with each other on that vulnerable side, right? Um and and you're developing as a young person, I think you're gonna have a more loving outlook and a more progressive view of life than feeling tied to a certain way of being.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yeah, I feel like some of what we're talking about here is just good parenting versus absentee parenting. But there are some specific things, I think, specific dynamics to how boys are raised. But I love that Stephen Graham chose to show the regret of his character and where he failed his child. You know, some people would look at that show and say it was as much about the social media era or the digital era as anything else, and the isolation and loneliness and the lack of identity. And yeah, even more important, a parent in this current climate. But he really showed the regret of that father for dropping the ball. By contrast, and I wish you had seen more, I think you might have watched the pilot episode, but DTF is a cultural zeitgeist at the moment and getting a lot of attention and striking a chord with people for very good reason. Some of the same themes like just isolation and loneliness and a need for connection in today's world, and yes, in the social media era, but specifically about what men aren't allowed to express in the parts of themselves they need to stuff away. And in that case, it wasn't somebody who's dropping the ball and neglecting their duty as a father, it was somebody who is literally doing his best earnestly, and it's really beautiful to watch. So it becomes, it doesn't end well, but he certainly overcompensates and tries to be the best possible father to his stepson, and it's something we haven't seen. So that's the aspirational, excuse me, aspirational storytelling we've been talking about. It's it's a new trend where you tell enough stories and you create a model for it. So the uh, I don't want to if you haven't seen it, I don't want to go too far into it, but you know, it just shows a unique male friendship uh between the two male leads, not the son. The father, you know, meets a weatherman, and it's it's really beautifully constructed, and the symbolism's amazing, but he becomes friends with the weatherman, and it's just something we've never seen. Again, two men that are ostensibly straight that say, I love you to one another, and that uh at the gym hold each other closely and cry with one another, and it's like whoa. Now, one could argue, and I've listened to the creator speak quite a bit about it, so I know what his intentions are, but I think it the responsibility there is the trope that ooh, any suggestion that there's intimacy between these men that is sexual becomes that trope of like, oh, gay equals sinister. Okay, got it. You know, during the Hayes Code, you could easily show you know creepy male characters that everybody knows are gay, and that's because art reflects life, but it's okay as long as they're the villain.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah. A show that I've been um, and I know I didn't mention this to you, so this is gonna be completely out of left fill for you because one show I didn't. So we watched my husband and I actually um so we both read a lot of Ann Rice's novels when they came out back back in the 80s and 90s.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Pretty homoerotic, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Yeah, so obviously they we all know that there's been the I'm gonna say the reinventing because they do take and uh Louis and Lestat out of um how how they are in the book and meat because it moves it a little bit more forward into a more modern time in um in New Orleans. And Louis, instead of being um a plantation owner with slaves, he comes from um descendants of slaves, uh in in the in the AMC version of it. But what I love about

When Remakes Add Modern Complexity

SPEAKER_01 43:48

it is right right now we're watching The Vampire Lassat, and um he's always been painted as you know how horrible he was, how horrible he was to Louis. However, in in this reimagining of the storyline is you're seeing that battle of these roles from the from the era that he was what I think he's from the 1700s, six late 1600s, early 1700s, I believe. I can't remember, so don't shoot me, guys. Anyways, but the cultural you know norms of what of of his of his time period going through the different decades and trying to gripple with his own sexuality, let alone his immortality. And unlike the books, where he always comes off very gruff and rough around the edges, instead, you're seeing this very sensitive side to this character and this emotional turn. Turmoil of wanting that connection and having these relationships, both platonic and romantic, with same sex, opposite sex. And I just love it because it really shows, again, like we've been talking about that, that human experience that it's just not simple, that you can't just put these in categories, that it's just such a nuanced way with layers of existing and being present in life.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

I don't know that I've seen you said it's an AMC remake of The Vampire Lestat.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

So yeah, they took the book. Um, and so he's he's a rock star in this, and he sings a lot of songs in it. But yeah, so it's not it's not to the to the actual book from the Vampire Chronicles from Anne Rice. I mean, the characters are, but they've they've updated him, modernized him, and they've added the nuances of what we see now in our society.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Well, that's what I was saying. So you're saying the way they're telling, even if it's just inspired by Anne Rice's world, but the modern form of storytelling is to show the nuance. And um do you think that's an agenda to normalize uh all the colors available?

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Yeah, and I love it because I mean they're showing within this vampire world, you know, um that that the by and actually last night's because we just watched uh the most recent episode last night, um, Lestat actually makes that comic as um so Lestat and his mother, um, who's a vampire Gabriella have an incestuous relationship and Louis coming completely unglued? Like you just don't do that. And he's like, and and what what Lestat says is like, but we're immortals, so when when when do um the constructs of ethics and values and belief systems of certain time periods break, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:49

I'm gonna take that opportunity if you don't mind, because I can't say a lot about it. I thought I had seen it for five minutes, but now you're saying he's a rock star. So what I will say is Ann, right, I don't want to go too far down this road because her intentions, you know, she wasn't even happy with the first one with Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt, and I think they I was gonna use a P-word, they softened it for Middle America and they didn't tell the story that she wrote, and she wasn't even happy with it. So I don't want to speculate about her intentions, I don't think it has anything to do with creating positive role models and normalizing nuance in the human condition. Um, but sometimes sensationalism or making something salacious, it's just good storytelling. But when you start mixing up moral ambiguity with normalizing the diversity that exists in the human condition, then it gets messy. So I think that's always an element. Like I said, if a creator or a film, you know, a Netflix series is created by a gay man, I can trust the intention. Sometimes when it's not, it's just code for, like you're saying, all the diversity in the human condition that we don't know what to do with, right? So something you said really prompted me to backpedal more and say there is a template for into the woods. What happens in terms of moral ambiguity when the rules of society are not enforced? That's Lord of the Flies, that's the entire survivor franchise, right? That's into the woods, that's when morals are not enforced and we're left to our base drives. Is it survival? You know what I mean? Is there room for altruism? That can become tiresome, right? There's that whole the Batman, I guess it was the Joker. Moral ambiguity. What would you do if the bus was teetering off the you know, and you could save one person? It gets really tiresome.

Moral Ambiguity Versus Lifted Veils

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Almost every Netflix series is about moral ambiguity. I'm waiting for somebody with a fucking backbone to come along as a character. So moral ambiguity gets tiresome to me. But a variation on that a little bit is ooh, the private lives people lead. And in a negative way, when you turn the lights on and the cockroaches scatter. So there is a trend right now, and I've got a bunch of titles here of not so much moral ambiguity, but to use your word, when the constructs dissolve, when the institutions dissolve, when our expectations dissolve, does that make a little bit of sense? It's not more morality, it's just like, oh, everything we thought we knew was an illusion. Yeah, and so if you don't mind, I'm gonna rattle off a couple because I think they're changing, and now DTF is a fascinating new way of kind of representing that same trope. But I'm just gonna do you remember Six Degrees of Separation? Did you ever see that? Yeah, it was a great play that became a great movie, and that was not so early on, you know, that was right as we were beginning. The talk shows were beginning to you know put a spotlight on some of the nuance in society. But then you have this trend of shows that were like rage against the machine, right? The rage that comes with disillusionment when the American dream doesn't pan out, what kind of sordid lives are people living behind closed doors? In this latest um DTF, there's a great line that gets repeated quite a bit. Well, everybody looks normal. Nobody's normal, they just look that way from across the street. So if you remember that Michael Douglas thing, uh I have the name written down. Boop, where he kind of goes into the liquor store with a baseball bat.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

And oh, um, it's not is it falling down?

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Oh, yes, falling down. I love I can't find my list, but I love that movie. Yeah, so there's that trope of like, ooh, the rage against modern society, what's being demanded of us by you know, technology and uh progress, and uh what's being left out of that equation. Our humanity, there's a lot of isolation and loneliness. There's so many on that topic, but uh anyway, I I have a list, I just can't find it. Yeah, American beauty was largely about you know the promise of the American dream and how it's just um kind of this glossy facade, but the reality is very different. Falling down, fight club was about that, taxi driver way back in the 70s, was about that, if that makes sense. So the moral ambiguity ones are Into the Woods, Lord of the Flies, Survivor, Batman, Lost, and Labrea, right? It's a bunch of people that no longer have to live under the constructs or the I guess enforcement of society. But anyway, when you get away from the morality aspect and you just talk about social constructs and institutions, and you lift that veil and see what humans are capable of. Sometimes it's sorted and sometimes it's really enlightening, and you see all these colors to the human condition that we have yet to embrace that represent the future that are aspirational. Um, is that making sense a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Um, that's one of the things. So, and I know you haven't watched it, but I mentioned it to you. Um, Brilliant Minds. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Oh no, I saw one. I told you I overheard it while I was yeah, you overheard it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Um, and I love that because um yes, the main character is he's he's a um a gay man in the neurology department, but they care so the best way to the best way to describe it, if anybody hasn't seen it, is so you think of like House MD and basically how Dr. House was just a complete jackass. Um, and and brilliant and brilliant minds, same intellectual thought process, however, it's looking at people and going, okay, well, you've got these things happening, be it there's like one episode where one of the patients coming in has Tourette's, and it's that conversation

Neurodiversity As A Gift Not A Fix

SPEAKER_01 53:03

of going through life with with Tourette's and and what that means. And what I like about the main character, it's like, well, this is like a beautiful part of who you are, versus oh, we need to fix this because it doesn't fit the norm.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Yep, yep, and that's why finding the gifts. That's what we're meant to do with our children, said the guy with no kids, is make them feel okay about their uniqueness, but also see the gift in it. Yeah, it's the best parenting right there. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Oh, absolutely, and that's why I love that show. And what I love about um, and he's actually based off um a neurologist who had um face blindness, and so the main character has face blindness in it as well, and so he's navigating this world as somebody in the neurology department who literally cannot associate your face, you know. So he has to find distinguishing characteristics to help him know to identify you and just watching him walk through this world and then getting people to embrace that beauty in themselves.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

In your studies, did you ever were you exposed to the man who mistook his wife for a hat? Does that ring a bell? No, it's just about all those bizarre neurological disorders you're talking about, where the facial recognition suffers, or there's one where you see that half of everything, you see the half, you know, half of the plate of food in front of you, you see half of your wife. It's amazing. It was, I think, in the 70s, but anyway, I haven't seen that, so I can't really comment on it. But it sounds like it's not just showing characters because you know, me, I've always wanted a matter-of-factly gay character where it wasn't a source of tension or conflict or drama, it just is. That's what I've been waiting for. So it sounds like they're matter-of-factly gay, but kind of supporting that is this idea of nurturing the differences in our children instead of shaming them for their differences.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

Yeah, and that's the thing. Yeah, he's he's he's gay, and it's like, okay, and that's just part of one part of who this character is.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

It's so well there was a scene where he came to terms with his father on that, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:19

I um so there's actually there's two neurologists, so they start off where they don't like each other. Um, uh, so you have the main character and then um the uh the surgeon of neurology, and they're both actually gay men, and they at in the first season they don't get along with each other, they actually don't like each other, and then by season two, toward the end of season one, by season two, they have a short relationship with each other, but they end up breaking up. So now it's navigating, working professionally with each other, having had a relationship with each other, just like you would in any work environment. So, but it's very organic, it's not, it's it's not the main plot. I mean, yes, it's it's the character development of the characters, however, um it's not the driving force, like it's all about the this romantic relationship or non-romantic relationship. It's just it'd be no different than any person, you know, falling in love, falling out of love, dating a coworker, then still having to work with them. And I love that because it's very organic. It's not like they're driving that as the storyline, which is what's beautiful with it. And at the same time, they're they're saying, Hey, people have all these different things going on in life, and that's what makes us unique and individual, and yet also part of this collective that contribute to the way this world functions, and that's what I love about this.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Well, it takes takes a village, and we're all part of the tapestry. We need to appreciate every thread in the tapestry. I didn't expect the episode to go this way or my thoughts to turn this way, but I did want to say we're spending so much time talking about gay representation or LGBTQ representation. You know, we kind of already did that with Jay. We did that episode about um normalization through positive role modeling. Uh I thought we were gonna talk a little more about just that trope of revealing the diversity that we flatten, as you say. Yeah, and for me, it is fascinating when you show, oh, you go in DTF, they're ostensibly straight men that are capable

Platonic Intimacy Between Men

SPEAKER_00 57:34

of this nuance, things we don't see modeled very often, and so that's something new to address in adolescence. We hadn't really seen that. Um, and then in uh Broadchurch, which I really wanted to talk about, it was basically the trope of who done it in adolescence. It wasn't a who-done it, it was a why done it. They told you the first episode that he did it. Nobody wanted to believe it, they were in denial about it. But the rest of the series was devoted to why all these, you know, social media era and all the isolation and loneliness and lack of identity. But in DTF and Broadchurch, it was the trope of a true whodunit. And then maybe it was as shallow as ooh, let's give something really unexpected. But unexpected can turn to sordid real quick. So I've watched enough interviews of people on the production, the creator himself, the actors who all have their own spin on the writing, right? And just fans talking about DTF. And most of them say the sexual tension between the two men is an element, but I see their friendship as platonic a hundred percent. And then when one of the characters wants to express himself intimately as an extension of the affinity and the affection, it doesn't go well. He's trying to do it to be a nice guy, and he's like, I'm sorry, I don't have it in me. So most people actually read them as uh straight-ish. That's the term that's being thrown around in the media, straight-ish. So I didn't mean to get into gay representation. We've done that episode.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

What I want to talk about is these new models of straight men and what they're capable of that people are so terrified of. So I'm gonna get real specific for listeners that haven't seen these two shows in Broadchurch. It is the least, you know, the truth turns out to be not just cockroaches scattering when you turn on the light, but some beautiful cockroaches as well, you know, like kind of like I said, putting things under a microscope or pulling pulling out the rug and see you seeing what we've swept under the rug. And so in that case, I'm not gonna remember exactly, but the kid kind of represented the the older man's failings with his own son who died, and so he's getting what he needs by literally meeting this kid and just hugging. They just meet in a boathouse and hug regularly. Like, what? What the heck? Uh, but it it shows something we've never seen before in DTF. You have two ostensibly straight guys that, yeah, earnestly want to help each other out. The one guy becomes his workout partner to help him lose his gut. He literally pays for his life insurance to relieve his stress. He fucks his wife because the wife isn't getting what she needs, and so it's about cuck holding a little bit, and it's a love triangle, and it's a lot of familiar tropes, but in a way that we've never seen them. So I don't want to muddy the waters, do you know what I mean, and bring in sordid things. What I kind of wanted to talk about is the true affection between these two men, and it actually turns out to be like bros before hoes. I think one of the main things you walk away with when you watch that is the enduring intimacy here is the affinity between the two men. Whereas sex is pretty shallow, and I never thought we would need this moral lesson, but it's almost you know, the gay community is known forever. Sorry, going back to that, I guess. But the game community, I just remember deciding, well, I'm gonna have to be open to developing a relationship from a sexual encounter because that's those are my options. Like I always thought, oh, you build a foundation first, all the traditional stuff. I wasn't receiving those opportunities to build a foundation with people. Uh, I think I've told you, I have one friend, we went on a couple bike rides, and I thought we were developing a nice friendship. And he basically is like, I put in the time you need to put out. And I'm like, Oh, we've gone on a couple bike rides. I thought it was just that. There's a time limit, it's almost like a biological clock. They pretend to be your friend until they can get in your pants. So that was kind of my experience. Like, there was a ticking clock, and I just couldn't wait to develop a real friendship. Wasn't happening. So I think this show, DTF, is now saying, even mainstream society, it's not just the gay community now. People are hooking up on apps, it's 100% sexual, everyone's isolated and lonely. They don't have the social skills to meet somebody at the supermarket and develop a relationship out of that. And so it's kind of reminding us that sex is just sex. And actually, the love between these two men is way stronger and more durable. Is that making sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

Oh, yeah, no, and it when I say no, I mean yes, it's making sense. Um, I I so here's something I want to put out there to you. Um it as as a female growing up, um you know, they always talk about like for us, you'll you'll see girlfriends hanging out together. When I say girlfriends, I mean platonic. Or we're, you know, we'll hug each other, we'll hang out with each other, we mean we'll share each other's clothes, we'll cry with each other, we'll we have that connection. And it doesn't mean like we're sexually attracted to each other or romantically attract to each other, like we can have exactly that platonic love, that intimacy. And so let's talk about that. Because I think that's what you're saying, is it seems like it hasn't been modeled for men that they can have this platonic intimacy where you are connected on a very deep emotional level, it's emotional intimacy without it turning into this romantic or sexual attraction, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Right. Well, platonic, yeah. That's the literally the word platonic is higher values, agape values, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Yeah, which is sad, you know, and and when you think about that, that it's just given, and when I say given, on and I'm just saying on again, generalizing that women nobody thinks twice about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

Yeah, well it everything's bass backwards, though. I mean, if you look at obviously Roman culture and it's been different, it's been different, but it doesn't get written into the history books, and then you look at the Victorian era, there was a huge tradition of men maintaining 20, 30 year relationships with very intimate letter writing, and it was accepted. It nobody batted an eye. You've got your partner, you yes, she's not a cow, don't worry, but you raise a family, but you also are allowed to have intimate male relationships, whether it's letter writing or something else. But then we love to go, well, clearly, Abraham Lincoln was gay because he wrote intimate letters, ain't necessarily so. So, you know, you you can only speculate about the past, but I do think it's been permitted in varying degrees, but then used to emasculate when called upon.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

It reminds me, and this just still just literally popped in my in my mind. So um Syrano, Syrano Divergent Divergerac, gosh, can't even say his name. If you think about anybody, if anybody's ever well, if you've seen the movie of Peter Dinklage, oh my gosh, he's got an amazing voice, but um, or the play. Um, but that right there, it shows you that that I think was one of what probably for me in early earlier literature of a male character who could pour his heart, like you said, in letters, have that intimacy. I mean, I know there was a romantic intimacy, however, he was also very intimately connected to who ends up becoming the romantic attraction to his romantic attraction, right? Because he's writing letters. I can't remember that guy's name now.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

Um the well, I have to make a confession. Sadly, I'm thinking of Roxanne. Did you ever see Roxanne?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

Yes, yeah, with Steve with Steve Martin.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

Yeah, yeah, it's one of my favorite films of all time. And I it especially at the time we would quote it regularly, my friend Fran. Shout out to Fran, would quote it regularly. Uh, earn more sessions by sleeping, anyway. That's for Fran. Uh, but sadly, I don't know the original as well as I know Roxanne. Did in the original Shakespeare did he fall in love with the male character by writing those letters?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

No, he um so I mean Cyreno was in love with Roxanne, that's who he's in love with. But Roxanne um falls in love with another soldier that they're together, yeah. And so, but he writes the letters for that. I can't remember that soldier's name now, anyways. Because you can tell how much I was invested in that one. Um, but the idea was but they had a very tight, you know, as men. platonic love for each other which is why Serena was able to keep his requinted love away you know quiet right and and support Roxanne's desire for this other man and help that blossom into something so um which is I mean that's that's a deep emotional intimacy to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

I think I follow you like when you want the best for your ex and you just want them to be happy that's a platonic love. Right. Yeah and so I agree I think having more stories like that where you see you know that masculinity is very not just this one sided way of looking at it right that it's a very nuanced way just well I mean we've talked about that right we all have masculine and feminine qualities right right and I think that's that's that's really I think the sad part is they don't allow as you said for men to show that more feminine side that softer side yeah again it's kind of circular and it gets pretty tiresome but I do feel like um art reflects life all we know is the moment so yes we grew up with the Marlburn and the brawny paper towel guy and John Wayne and all these silly very American tropes about masculinity you know my entire life oh French guys they're allowed to have a sense of style without their girlfriends telling them how to dress they can have that strategic bedhead and uh unshaven jaw you know they they're very aware of their physicality and don't need their girlfriends to tell them how to dress that's the best way I can put it we Americans all we know are jeans and white socks they love our white underwear and white socks because we're so backwards. So I've always seen the big picture and seen how limiting American masculinity is I do want to touch on this a little bit no offense to anyone but why do you I'm just gonna ask then why do you suppose because you're exposed in Utah to a lot more of this than I am if I said conservatives seem really invested in maintaining rigid gender roles does that sound right to you the next question would be why yeah well all you have to do is I mean look I'm gonna make my case just watch Fox News if you can get upset about an MM and the fact that they flattened her shoes you've got too much time on your hands. You're not gonna argue with me that conservatives

Conservatives And Enforced Gender Roles

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

are invested in maintaining masculinity do you know the this Fox News story about how tanning beds are lowering the sperm count I mean a lot of stories center on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

Yeah yeah no and I was yeah yeah no there you're right and and there is I mean that was one of my things um talking about gender roles is and and pick it on Utah specifically um was uh the fact that you know girls girls are supposed to be in dresses more than pants um not saying that that's the case here in Utah in modern Utah now however you know pick pick it on the LDS church I mean a lot of churches Christian churches will just you know go general again um women can wear what they want to church but in the LDS church women still wear dresses on Sunday you're not supposed to wear anything else other than a dress yeah um and that's supposed to be a sign of respect I'm going well you can wear a nice pantsuit right as long as I'm not showing up in jeans I can still wear a nice pantsuit now they're starting to finally like you know inner like 2020 beyond uh finally get that in their head but I mean I grew up where you can even wear freaking tank tops when I grew up in the LES church as a woman because I guess like showing my shoulders was like too provocative.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:44

I have no idea and now now they can um that's a recent change in yeah you can't go into the Vatican with bare shoulders but I do think you know when you cross the line into oppression when it's a head cover you know face covering um I do think there's general respect across the board but when it's used specifically to oppress women it's clear as day to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

Yeah and so I think gender roles are that way because I think it makes them it comes down to what makes you feel comfortable in your own skin and it's great if that works for you. However to put that on the mass majority I think that's really like a lot of what we're talking about is like that then that's not okay because yeah you're right then that's when we go into suppression and oppression and that's that's not okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:32

Yeah I think there's some a lot of apologists out there you know there are Muslim women that will support head coverings and that you have to have a chaperone when you go out that women can't drive under the Taliban that they don't have the rights to their children that men do in the courts men have the upper hand in you know family court um and that's called the uh Stockholm Syndrome so I don't really buy the apologist mentality but it is in the eye of the beholder when respect under the guise of religion lapses into the oppression of women I guess what I I I was kind of headed toward you know I just have the worldview that Christian circles especially are invested and I've watched enough Fox News to know it in enforcing rigid gender roles they're actually evolving and I see a lot of resistance to that the diversity we're talking about presenting on a non-binary spectrum is really uncomfortable to conservatives and I'll just break it down it's pretty simple we needed to enforce those rigid gender roles for a long time because we needed to procreate we needed more in our tribe not the case anymore we're overpopulated that may be why we're seeing so much more diversity become socially acceptable and they call it the gay agenda or the non-binary blah blah they they're really terrified of it but it's because we resist change and it's fear based but we're evolving for a reason and these models are actually becoming more prominent because we're overpopulated I had a and I didn't used to buy that a friend of mine years ago a straight friend uh guy said why do you think there's so many more gays now and the implication is oh because of the the drugs or women are smoking when pregnant or he wanted me to say something about you know the prenatal environment or something and my answer was like there's not more gays now they're just visible now.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:49

Yeah you were able to be comfortable and blind to it until now so anyway a lot of it's silly to me but I just want to offer that idea that we're evolving and changing up relationship models you know there's many different definitions of family now uh adoption um gay families that adopt we're really broadening relationship models all the institutions and that includes gender presentation yeah or I sorry gender identity and uh yeah how you present well and I think I think you made a good point that you know things changed because I mean gosh I remember my parents divorced when I in in the in the 80s and it was mid 80s when they divorced so it wasn't like divorce wasn't a normal thing and I felt othered having divorced parents because again it was parents stay together forever and even when things are crappy and blah blah blah blah and and talking about um going back to to men and how like and and some cultures where men have more say in the patriarchy which interesting talking about children and stuff and divorce is here in the US um which again it I guess it's that stereotype like men can't be caregivers over here and how we're back afterwards so the women always have better rights when it comes to getting full custody of children over man over a dad um which is really sad because sometimes it's one yeah it's true but I do like that it's one area where women have some power but I also feel like men get the short end of the stick in a family court for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:31

Yeah and and why is that you know and I'm sure it goes back to that whole well then you know men aren't caregivers well who says right well some of these tropes hold on and hold on like you're saying divorce really wasn't a problem except in really conservative Catholic circles where you were excommunicated from the church you know in modernism in uh this century it hasn't been a huge problem I at one point I said to my parents you know relationships are challenging we were talking about some single female friends that their biological clocks were ticking and it was a pretty contentious conversation because my sister one of my sisters said um you know was speculating about why two family friends

Dropping Old Scripts For Authenticity

SPEAKER_00 1:16:16

weren't married yet and I her feel like I'm throwing people under the bus this was years ago her opinion was maybe the mistake that I've fallen into which is thinking we're all the same that we're all here for the same reason. You mentioned intimacy earlier and I I almost said well I used to think that we all want intimacy that's what we're seeking and um that we fail at it you know that we get on our own way or we self-sabotage but really all we want is um intimacy I no longer think that I think we're all here for a different reason some people are here to be because it takes a village like we said some people are here to be the cool aunt uh some people are here to be the gay family member that is the only one that can get their shit together and solve a problem in a family because they don't have a baby on both hips and they can think clearly there's all kinds of roles for people and it's a mistake to think that we're all here for the same reason. Is that making a little bit of sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:17

Oh absolutely so here here's one for you um talking about being thrown into categories right so I'm a mom of three and so and and I'm in my 50s you know just entering them and I have a lot of friends who are in their 50s and into the early 60s who have children and they like talk about being grandparents like can you wait to be a grandma and I'm like no how dare you yeah they do they look at me they're like well don't aren't you excited like can't you wait till your children start having kids I'm like I don't think my kids want to have kids I'm like but don't you want to be a grandma and I'm like well if I become one I mean I'm gonna obviously honor being a grandma because I'm not gonna like ignore my grandkids obviously but if I don't become one it's not the end of the world either for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:00

Right and that just blows people's minds no yeah it's how dare you step out of line stepping out of line I did have the thoughts go ahead sorry oh let's say well I think it goes right to what we've been talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:14

It's those narratives that we just we've been telling ourselves or we've been told that we buy into and think it just has to be because it's familiar and it's comfortable and stepping out of those lines like you said people get scared and they get afraid like well what does that mean because I think it's that they don't know where they sit anymore in the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:32

Yeah I had that thought I mean thank God I've never fallen victim to any of it. I identify as a subversive artist who never bought socialization to begin with I'm I'm a pretty good boy thankfully you know like my temperament and my disposition I I'm pretty um amenable but I never bought socialization to begin with and it came in handy when it turned out I was a gay man but I did whenever I hear like oh I did the family and kids thing because it was expected of me you just wanted your inheritance sorry really men that get married have no desire to get married and have children but find the perfect wife just in order to procreate they just want their inheritance sorry yeah so I'm curious what happens when our old scripts of being a man a woman a partner a spouse parent or family no longer fit what what do you think is going to happen you mean on an individual level or societal level both well I think there's less collateral damage I think there's less people committing suicide um I think we all benefit from the diversity because instead of marginalizing the gay community and yet going ahead and wearing their clothes and listening to their music and um you know partaking in every the unique worldview they have to offer um then there's less hypocrisy that's gotta be good.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

Yeah what else when we let our gender roles dissolve or when we let our expectations dissolve what was the question exactly what when we let the old scripts of you know so those narratives of of those categories of of being a specific thing because I I I I like I like what you said because I think when when we subscribe to a specific like okay I'm a woman right well what is it we'll ask that question right we know that question's been asked you know what does it mean to be a woman like what is a woman well I know for me being a woman is not how some other how another female may describe being a woman I can tell you that well authentic the word authentic comes to mind you know if people are freed from their own expectations or internalized societal expectations social conditioning if they're freed from that there tends to be more authenticity I know there's more happiness you know you could count a million stories where somebody said oh I did this for the church I did this to please my parents and I have one friend that was freed when her father died.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:11

Now I feel like they're still around and they're still looking but their souls are more dimensional and they understand ego and it's all water under the bridge. But somehow the fact that her father was no longer on the planet that was permission to pursue her dream not her father's dream for her.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:28

So there's a lot of that going on do you know oh I think we lost you are you there no I'm here no I yeah and I I agree with that because I can relate to that I I mean I I I love I love my my mother dearly and she is gone um it's been two years. However I felt a huge weight off my shoulders and I used to say the anchor around my neck um because I was her only child. And so I felt even though I pushed against it constantly I was constantly bumping up against her expectations and defying and defy uh defying them I was gonna say defining I mean defying them um as a as a kid growing up however there was definitely certain responsibilities being the only child that I couldn't completely escape um or were harder to escape unless I completely cut my mom out of my life which I wasn't going to do while she was alive. So I did feel a lot freer once she was gone.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:33

I think it's pretty universal you know uh but I I want to say too if you feel like ooh now I can be authentic and I can be my true self because I don't have parental expectations in the way you asked what is the value of stripping away these rigid models well happiness personal happiness that's pretty shallow you know some people would say you know uh that's self-serving what about the big picture what about our interconnectivity well you have more to offer society if you're an authentic complete person. Your gifts are free right to contribute back to the collective so that's the true value of it when we're more authentic when there's no hypocrisy and when there's an a non-split intention in the world then you can truly contribute. So that's now I'm getting really lofty but I think we're all creative beings and we're all meant to contribute our gifts back to the collective and most people are inhibited from doing so in some way I think we would be in better shape you know I think everything happens for a reason we're evolving and everything is just as it should be I also think there are major existential crises that could mean the end of the planet do you know what I mean the end of humanity the end of democracy you fill in the blank they're very real and we're all being challenged to come to the table and solve the problems according to our own gifts so whether it's climate change or um the end of democracy which believe it or not is the whole world hinges on it um we're in several wars right now and we've kind of lost our title as you know the pinnacle of democracy and the enforcers of democracy we our our respect in the world has majorly suffered. So these are very real things we need to individually reconcile and then collectively remedy. Does that make sense? So we're in a much better position you asked I'm just giving you my answer yeah I now that I've thought about it you know we have more to offer to our ongoing evolution when we're authentic and we're not inhibited by these silly silly limiting tropes. Yeah so I think what I'm hearing in that too Nick is that as storytellers um the storytellers of the world because they've always been important I think um people who fall within that category I'm saying category right um but they choose to be in that category uh that they're reflecting the change that helps us actively create the next model of our evolution well it's is isn't it that big question you know does art reflect life or does it dictate uh way back in 1985 I did a speech called television master or servant and so it's it's both isn't it it's reciprocal we model I don't think it's always examined either a great storyteller doesn't have an agenda they

Art Reflects Life And Shapes It

SPEAKER_00 1:25:32

just honor a theme based on inspiration show all sides of that coin do you know what I mean but according to hopefully you know tropes that speak to new audiences or you know settings and um circumstances and conditions that speak to modern audiences and sometimes retell the same templates or tropes but um I just don't think art can help but reflect life but yes of course that's what we are here to talk about on this podcast is the ways in which it can dictate as well so I don't think any great creator should have an agenda but I'm telling you Stephen Graham knew what he was up to with adolescence listened to a couple interviews with Conrad what's his name Stephen Conrad of DTF he's a genius and uh he's straight as an arrow I love hearing him say it because he they're playing coy too by the way the entire cast and him they will play coy and say oh it's just a whodunit and it's a really unexpected whodunit and we're playing around with those tropes and broadening do you know what I mean that kind of defying expectations but they will never directly talk about whether these guys are gay straight ish has come up a lot but I know for a fact he's modeling well he has talked a little bit about what a great father that guy is to his stepson and we haven't really seen that he they have all talked about how this almost taboo intimacy between the men is something new but they haven't really said we have an agenda and we're out to enforce social change you know as it should be yeah well I I think I think the stories that we see out there especially the ones that are starting to evolve now at least for me I think are helping me become more curious about people and life versus filling in those gaps with my own projections of of life it's it's it's actually making me stop and think and and going back to I I use my kaleidoscope analogy a lot um and counseling but where I'm sitting there and I may be facing the same way on the cliff with my with my kaleidoscope lens but I'm just slowly turning it you know and moving it through that 360 degrees to constantly see that picture in a new evolving way. Beautiful yeah rethinking our presumptions that's a term I use a lot you know I don't need anyone to nudge me to rethink my presumptions you know I'm intellectually curious and hopefully evolving and like I said I've never bought into a lot of it but I don't think it could be a bad thing for humanity for all of us to regularly have a reality check or rethink our presumptions history is not what it seems you know and that's a big one right now in the news right rewriting history or telling a certain version of it or you know how disempowering it can be to retell the less than empowering narratives it's these are all things we're grappling with right now. So but rethinking your presumptions has got to be good. I think it's lazy to just be a bumper car and you know be um subject to whatever forces or you know whichever way the wind blows we've got to uh decide what our worldviews are and what our values are.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:56

Yeah I I 100% agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:59

You know you sorry do you have some I feel like I interrupted you. Nope you gave me a little um room because we should probably tie this up but this idea of nothing is what it seems you know a lot of the titles we've been talking about are really just that and uh in all of this I do want to share a story that I wrote so maybe I'll make a mini episode about it. But it is kind of like don't judge a book by its cover which is tried and true right and uh nothing is what it seems when you lift that veil it's kind of like the Oz behind the curtain. But it's more about filling in the gaps with innuendo like you said or gossip or demonizing because you don't fully understand something.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:42

So it's called Every Last Dragonfly and then that's going to be maybe our next episode I'll do

Nothing Is What It Seems

SPEAKER_01 1:29:47

a little recording of it but it kind of speaks for itself it's like don't be so sure nothing is what it seems and maybe we are freed or empowered when we stop buying the lazy tropes yeah I I agree um I I think those those give us the comfort of knowing where we sit in the world however comfort doesn't allow us to grow it's when we sit in the discomfort with the curiosity that progress is allowed to flourish in growth yeah stagnancy never helped anyone exactly and so I think if you're hugging to that closely that's probably when you need to take a step back and do some internal reflection.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:33

I love it. And I also think that's a great note to end on okay what do you think? I think so too words of wisdom well thank you so much thanks for making time yeah it's great to be here and to our audience remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively we can write a new story. See you next time