Chapter Two Roundtable: STORYTELLING and CATHARSIS

What if catharsis isn’t a single dramatic release but a daily reset that turns judgment into compassion? We sit down with artist and educator Greg Spalenka to explore how story, image, music, and spiritual practice can move us from fear to presence—and why that shift might be the most important creative skill we have.

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Transcript

Friendship, Artistry, And Recovery

SPEAKER_03 0:47

You're a good friend, even though we don't we're living in different areas. If we were hanging out, right, we'd probably be seeing each other more and doing things. But um, but I have a tremendous respect for you and you know what you're doing as an artist. And this is part of your artistry right now. It's you know, in in the audio realm of our artistry, and but more than that, it's you're taking these concepts, these creative concepts, and you're bringing them to the world. You're you're doing the deep dive on issues of you know, uh, mind, body, spirit. And it's so important, it's vital. And so I bow to your vision with all of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

It is true, it's not my self-expression in the areas that I'm trained in. But very frankly, while I was getting well, I had cryptococcal meningitis, and I had to keep my executive function functioning. So writing and being extremely analytical and intellectual about this, which I would rather just be doing it, right, Greg? All artists just want to be doing it. Exactly. But it really served me to write this over the course of time while recovering because I needed to keep my fucking brain working.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Well, it's like therapy, right?

Returning To The Book’s Core

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Well, it literally just maybe not like in a cathar since we're talking about catharsis today, like it wasn't a visceral emotional catharsis, but it did what needed to be done, which was keep my executive function available to me. And I'm just saying that to you artists to artists, that I don't love to analyze, I like to just do it. And as you know, in your teaching, you often come across a lot of romantic notions about the creative process where a lot of people just wanted to be unexamined. I did this and I got it out of my system, trust me. Yeah, yeah. But I also feel like, you know, we're all called upon to connect our dots, maybe, and kind of concretize, if that's a word, our worldview and then share it. All of our artists that we've had on before going back to my book very much just told their stories, and it wasn't about me or my book at all. They really illustrated what my book is about. I mean, there's so much soulful dialogue in those episodes. Hi guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul Podcast, for life is story. Welcome back for those of you uh hopefully, those of you that have been tuning in regularly, you will know we've gone back to the book. I believe, Virginia, you can confirm or deny that this is our seventh episode going back and unpacking the book. It's only chapter two, but if you do the math, is it our seventh episode? Am I right about that?

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Um, they're making me have to do math.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

I'm like, well, because introduction, introduction round table, yeah, chapter one, then chapter round tables one and two, and now this is the first. Oh, and then uh the reading of chapter two.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah, so yeah, this is seven. Yeah, so this is number seven. Technically eight, if you guys have been tuning in, because we did slip in a special episode of The Seeker chapter one.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

But that wasn't part of this series, so that's a special episode.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Yeah, that was a special episode. So this is the seventh in the actual language of the soul book and going back to what got the podcast started, yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Right. Yeah, I'm just an artist. I ain't a mathematician, I'm just an art, I'm just a drawer. But yeah, it seems counterintuitive that we're only on chapter two, but it's the seventh episode. But in that spirit, chapter two is called Story and Catharsis. So I noticed in going back to it, I kind of busted the catharsis wad in chapter one, talking about Bonnie Raid and you know that that example of somebody hearing it in a car radio in a cornfield in Iowa and a circuit being completed. I kind of really discussed the mechanics of catharsis in chapter one. So I was surprised in going back to this, how I think it had plenty to say about catharsis, but it uh it was already fully explained in chapter one, if that makes sense. Did you notice that?

SPEAKER_02 4:48

I did.

unknown 4:48

I did.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

But go ahead, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I I was gonna say, but there's there's still a lot of meat in this chapter too to get into.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

I hope so, yeah. And um, but uh what happened too is a lot of things come up throughout the book. And it's what 370-something pages. So repetition is the key to learning, not that it's all about learning, but anyway, I just feel like I make a case over three hundred and something pages, so it's kind of natural that things organically come up again and again. I was just surprised when I went back to the episode that oh wait, but that Bonnie Grey thing, that was chapter one, not two. But I hope, yeah, there was plenty in there for our guest today to relate to and resonate with, I hope. And on that front, I'm gonna turn it over straight out the gate after a bit of babbling to Virginia, because she's gonna mediate as she's been doing throughout. Uh or moderate, sorry, moderate.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

I didn't know it became a mediator, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

It could happen, yeah, depending on how contentious it gets. Let's start with moderation and and see if you have to mediate. How about that?

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Okay, welcome, Virginia Grenier.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I thought you were gonna introduce our guest today, because you know him better than I do.

Introducing Greg And His Journey

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Okay, I'm glad to do that. Greg is a former guest. This is his second time on Language of the Soul podcast. Uh if you've not heard the former episode, Greg is a huge influence on me. He was my instructor at Art Center back in the Cretaceous. I actually went there from 89 to 91. And I believe I had him in upper terms, so probably closer to 90 or 91. And yeah, he's the man. He's uh I don't want to speak for him. He can clarify anything I get wrong here. I don't have his bio in front of me, but Greg is, I think, would identify as an editorial illustrator, a uh conceptual editorial illustrator, but he's obviously branched off into entertainment and a number of other ventures, including music projects that I love and adore. But more importantly, he's a kindred spirit and he inspires me. And uh I'm looking forward to recreating the magic we did on the former episode. I guess we should have read the bio. Do you have it in front of you, Virginia?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

I don't, actually. That is totally my I I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Okay. Well, you prompted me to talk about him, so here's how I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna say, Welcome, and please tell us about yourself. Who are you? What are you what are you all about, Greg? This is Greg's palaco. Explain yourself. What are you all about, Greg?

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Hi, Nick in Virginia. It's a pleasure and an honor to be back on the language of the soul. It's uh it's such an amazing uh, I'm gonna say venue almost that you've created here. And uh it's so inspiring, it's uplifting, it's elevating. Um, it's something everyone can learn something from. You know, it's it's lovely. So, yes, I'm Greg Spalenka, and uh believe it or not, at one point I was uh next teacher at Art Center College of Design. Way back then. So I'm one of the old guard, I guess you could say. But and you're correct. Um yes, I was uh concept illustrator, uh editorial illustrator for many years, decades. I still do some illustration, concept designer and film. And now I would say it really is um the the uh focus is really more on my own personal projects, uh, but pulling together pulling together everything that I love from story to art to film to music, uh pulling them all together in different capacities, uh and ultimately, like you, with the goal of inspiring people in different different manners, different ways.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

I think your work moves people. You know what I mean? Yes, inspires, but it's so viscerally moving. So, yeah, I'm excited about your personal projects.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Oh, yeah, but thank you.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Well, yeah, and thanks for including me on the one. Do you want to talk about it yet, or is it not ready?

SPEAKER_03 8:53

I know we can talk, we can talk more about it a little bit later. Uh, but the one thing I I am sort of uh I I do love that you have me on this specific chapter, um, storytelling, you know, producing catharsis, right? I mean, the word catharsis, you know, under itself is it's interesting. It's like a catharsis is part of our lives every day. It's like getting up in the morning is a catharsis. Absolutely. You know, even brushing your teeth can be a catharsis. There can be like a million separate little moments throughout the day that can be cathartic. Uh, you know, because it's it's uh it's like part of our evolution and and how we see moments, um uh how we pick up um on the presence of something that's happening in in our lives, uh, and uh throughout all the senses uh and then beyond the senses, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:50

I mean your ideas, your thought forms, your paradigm.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

All of it, exactly, and how every little part can become a story too, which is fascinating. So it's uh I think it's a perfect, uh it's a great chapter in the book. Um, and so I'm actually I think it's perfect for us to be talking about it right now.

Everyday Catharsis Explained

SPEAKER_00 10:09

I'm so glad to hear you say that. I was reading it as I said, I went back to it and I was like, is that the right one to attach Greg to? Is he gonna have anything to say? So that so reassures me. But I I agree with you a hundred percent that it's kind of a renewal, it's a baptism, a renewal. We got to have our catharses every single day. And I frankly can't afford to go to the movies lately, so I'm missing that particular catharsis, you know. But I like what you're saying that on the daily, I think we're renewing faith, we're renewing hope, whether it's in humanity, the planet, our children, our potential, our capacity. I don't know if that makes sense, but even just the raw emotional catharsis. Imagine if we didn't have outlets, you know?

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Oh, yeah, it's it's so it's vitally, it's vital, it's so important. Um, as you say, it's it's a you know, at the end of the day, we're trans. Well, it you have the personal story of your life. And then if you're sharing that in any capacity, right, whether it's at a phone call, whether it's talking like this on a pad podcast, whether you're creating a visual piece of art, whether you're uh creating a piece of music, a film, uh, a book, writing a book, um it's all connected because we're at the with ultimately at the end of the day, with the sort of this goal um of transforming, you know, um not only the self in the context of creating whatever that is, uh, and living that experience, but transforming individuals and society too. Yes. It's you know, sharing our human experience, it which you talk about quite a bit in the um chapter itself.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, you're saying it beautifully though, like it is individual, then through the ripple effect, we hope the macro is affected, but it is no small thing, you know, the idea that we have art to allow us to feel our feelings and hopefully purge. We'll get into the definitions of catharsis in a bit, uh, with Virginia's help.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna say you guys are like just totally opening up my beginning.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Going there.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Yeah, so I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna narrow down what I guess what I was gonna say because yeah, you guys you guys have already talked around a lot. So just to take our listeners really quick, if you haven't go back to chapter, go back to the intro, go back to chapter one. Uh specifically chapter one, um, we talked about story transformation, about the chemistry, the bonding, the tribalism, and responsibility. Slow down.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Sorry, I know woo, wow. So uh so in chapter one, it was story transformations, is what we focused on. So it's about the chemistry, about the bonding, the tribalism, and the responsibility. Chapter two, we're going inward, and so this chapter is what actually happens inside the artist, which we have two of them already sharing that whole catharsis and not just looking as that buzzword that we all hear, but more about the mechanism and how it functions in our lives, which is what you guys just all beautifully just shared in multiple ways. Um, and so going to the beginning of this chapter and opening it up, um, we're gonna be questioning some of the things that we think we already understand. And one of the things that I noticed at the beginning of this chapter was I was thinking in my mind, because I am not an artist, I draw stick people.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

You're a writer, you are an artist, and you express yourself through your writing.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

My writing is is is through is through the written word. It is Greg.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I have a question for Greg. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

You pee Greg, when people say I can't draw a straight line, do you say what I say, which is neither can I?

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Literally, that's a great response. I'll have to remember that.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Okay, you can have it, just leave a quarter on the nightstand. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Well, I would if they say that, then I say, Well, then your talent lies elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What Is Art, Really?

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Because it's not necessarily about drawing a straight line or a curved line or drawing a stick figure. It's it's beyond all that. It's really, and this is why I love that I'm a part of this segment, because when you talk about it, it's it's all about an inside out job at the end of the day, right? You know, in living in just our lives, uh, and then creation, of course, is all about coming from that place. Um, so being authentic, right? Having a sense as and and know thyself and who are you at the end of the day, really? Um knowing that you're coming from that place and it's not just some knee-jerk reaction, you know, to something you'd heard before or some or just uh re um repeating somebody else's opinion, that that it's it's your perception of thing of things. And you know, as we know, we have all of our senses, right? All the five senses, but then we have the senses that go beyond that. And if you want to get into that, to the senses of like your intuition, you know, you have your mind, but you also got those other uh invisible, mysterious, uh uh you want to call them um like radars of intelligent intelligence that that are within us, and only we can perceive them that way, you know, if however you're connected to source, you know, you want to call it God or spirit, uh, but that that that deeper tech, you know. I mean I get everybody talks about AI these days, and it's oh it's taking over the world and you know, and and all these different capacities, right? But I don't know, maybe we'll get into that later. But I say, you know, the tech you have inside yourself is is even more amazing. Beautiful. So um, yeah, yeah, so uh it's um I don't know. Did I make any sense there? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

You did, and I'm gonna have you guys both hold your thoughts because Greg was starting to touch into where I was gonna go with that. So the question was always coming up for me was as I was reading, as I started this chapter, was what is art? You know, in my mind, like what is art? What does it mean, right? And so early in the chapter, Nick, you push back against that rigid category uh the rigid categories of art. You distinguished between art and general creativity, and you you even cite Oxford's definition of art, and I'm just gonna shorten this a little bit, but you start off with the expression or application of human creativity, skill, and imagination, and then you go into producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power, and then you resist the idea that art is limited by what academics define as beautiful or emotionally powerful. So, this is where my question was going as I was going through that section is when you say art is appreciated primarily for its beauty and emotional power, I wonder if you can expand on what that means, the emotional power part of art, which is where I feel like Greg was starting to go to in that whole it goes beyond just what you can draw, straight lines, curved lines, what you're seeing color, you know, combinations like that part.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

So the question is, how do I define art?

SPEAKER_02 17:21

How how what what is the emotional power behind art? Like what what is that when you talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Well, I'm gonna let Greg take this, but but you know, quickly, I understand your question because I did push back on the silly, silly dictionary definitions of art. And I put several, by the way. It wasn't just Oxford, but yeah, they're all limited. And the pushback you're referring to is I immediately said, Well, strangely, I find very utilitarian crafts like a really well-sculpted spoon, right? Like Brian Thompson, one of our former guests, whittles spoons. And I find utilitarian, like Wahawk and wood sculpture, I guess that's aesthetic, but I find utilitarian innovations uh the most beautiful. So you know, art is in the eye of the beholder, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So I think, you know, one of the examples I brought up was my friend Diane. And in the 90s, I would have said, well, she doesn't self-identify as an artist. She's still looking for her vehicle, she's still trying to find her voice and find the right vehicle of expression for her. But everything she does is art, you know, her laugh, the way she, you know, moves. And um, so I'm not the first to say art is in the eye of the beholder, but also in terms of creative expression, I think Greg was hinting that it's not about a skill set that involves motor skills, it's so much more than that. And so I will I'll turn it over to you, Greg. But I think she was talking about the very top of the chapter. I did just play the devil's advocate and question what constitutes aesthetic value or artistic merit or even beauty. These are circular conversations.

Universal Forms Versus Personal Voice

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Well, I agree with you that uh yeah, beauty is in the eye of the whole beholder. Ultimately, I like to say also perception is an act of creation, right? So our view of reality is uh based on our experiences and then also how we view the world through the lens of our biases. Those are things that uh, you know, we grew up, our family uh, you know, is a big influence on that. Uh, our friends, our relatives, uh, you can keep going outward into our your community, uh, your city, your state, your country, your planet, uh, what planet are you living on? You know, essentially. So uh those perceptions can be wide-ranging. Um, I think though, uh so it's very, it is very personal. Uh I do believe, though, that there are certain uh facets in art, if you want to call it like uh sacred geometry or or like the gold, the golden mean, right? The golden proportions, um, that there are universal principles uh that are timeless. Uh you're gonna call like the proportions in what what you would the normal human being would consider to be, for instance, like the a beautiful face, you know. What what are the proportions in a beautiful face? Right, you know, with the eyes, the nose, and the mouth, and you know, and the shape of the face. And so I do believe that there are uh universal principles that will sort our that yeah, everyone can connect to somehow, some way.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Um I jump in real quick.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I hate to say it, but image. I I separate word and image in this book, and there's a whole chapter devoted to uh image and story. And you're attached to that too, by the way. That's why when I said I'm not sure we attached you to the right chapter, because there's entire sections in the image and story chapter that talk about sacred geometry. Mondrian, for example, who believed he could induce literally um, I forget the different states that he thought he could literally produce in people. And so, yeah, the universal, I mean, the whole branch of philosophy called aesthetics delves into these formal properties that hopefully induce a universal reaction in all of us. But yeah, maybe you will come back on for that one.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

There's into the and it is across, if you think about it, it's across the board really, because whether it's in writing, you could say, all right, there are universal storytelling techniques, right? That um that really work well, you know, for instance, you know, a beginning, a middle, and an end, if you want to keep it as simple as that. Um, in music, right? Uh, yeah, a verse, uh, a chorus, a bridge, a verse, a chorus.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Same thing in film, uh, of course, you know, telling a story, and then uh the general principles of how you do that visually, uh, and are and are you uh integrating music, are you integrating dialogue? Um, so there are, I think across the board, absolutely, and and it's just as being a human, we we we take in information uh and it can appreciate certain things. And in if you go back to the senses again, like like food, how food, how specific foods taste. Like, like for instance, I I've uh read that the the there's one specific taste. You have like the main taste, right? You guys like salty, bitter, like uh, what is it, like an Ayurvedic salt or salt, salt, sweet, bitter, uhstringent. So there are those main tastes, but the human will generally will all generally gravitate towards. The sweet. It's like it's across the board, universal. It's like all humans will gravitate toward the sweet if they have a preference, right? Uh, so I do believe that there are those qualities.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Um, I mean, I I've often said to go back a little bit, you mentioned storytelling, the literary realm. I mean, I've often said that's kind of what it is, not that I'm gonna definitively say what it is to be a quote great writer. There's all kinds of kind of romantic notions about what it is to be a great writer, but I do argue it's kind of being a master of what is universal, what's culturally relative. You become a master at where the subject subjectivity steps in and empowers the universal, right? So maybe it's almost like the technique or the craft that we have to take the time to get good at is understanding what's universal and what's extremely subjective. But then you let all that go, and the power lies in being Tori Amos, who just does a stream of consciousness with her lyrics, and you actually don't know what the fuck she's talking about, but it resonates and moves you because it transcends. So the subjective, I think, is where the power lies, but understanding the mechanics of the universal, the way we're wired, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

Yes, exactly. And so, yes, so there, and so there are universal, but then the the beautiful and the most powerful part of the individual, if you want to call it the um personal voice, uh, is that you then are perceiving things sometimes in ways that are very different than everybody else. And and that's the power in art throughout all of all of the different contexts of art, is that you then bring that per personal perspective to the planet in a way that maybe has not ever been done.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yes. Um, that's kind of what I was saying in the green room about I got this this book out of my system because I felt it was my personal contribution, the dots that only I subjectively would connect. And yes, we're all being called because I was uh I had my brush with death. So I felt very much called upon to not just leave a legacy, that's ego, but to contribute to our collective evolution. Just that. But I think we're all being called upon to connect our own personal dots and share that.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Well, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Oh, I was gonna say what I what I think I'm hearing from both of you too is it's the art is less about the medium that is being used, and it's more about how we each can feel it viscerally and in our subjective way of understanding to bring that interconnectedness.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

In response to that, and something that was said a moment ago, sorry, Virginia, I know we're way off track, but actually, this is the idea. Greg said we'd be in the moment, we'd be organic, and I'm all at the flow. Well, we're some good stuff's coming up though. And so, Virginia, you might remember, you know, on this podcast, by the way, the beauty of getting so many perspectives is you're hearing people talk about not just their their personal catharsis, I don't know if that's a word, but their um relationship with craft, yes, their journey toward finding their voice, then connecting it with a sense of purpose. Almost everybody has had that come to Jesus moment that put purpose on the front burner. And so hearing all the people talk about that journey, one thing that keeps coming up, at least in listening to you, Greg, is um this idea of the universal versus your subjective contribution. We had a very academic, I would say elitist uh writer who had very strong opinions about what constitutes merit, which is a horrible word, right? And that's artistic integrity, literary value, and all of that. And she really resisted the whole concept of the hero's journey or any school. Well, you gotta respect it. She said that's her, yeah, sure. She said that's just another tool of the patriarchy to all this.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Oh, yeah, but but yeah, but you can still put that, you can still use the same principles with the heroine.

Holding Opposites And Empathy

SPEAKER_00 26:51

I didn't take the time to explain that, but her premise was that it's a tool of the patriarchy to silence voices, and in the context of colonialism, it's absolutely true. We've also had a Harvard literature professor come on and talk about this idea of those who are colonized being able to finally tell their stories after being marginalized, ostracized, silenced, and erased. So I see it as a tapestry, and all threads in that tapestry have value to the collective in terms of our march toward potential and capacity. So, yeah, it's fascinating the different relationships people have with universality versus subjectivity. She would say there is no such thing as universality, and she she went on and on about how an academic would say, Oh, you need to ground all your writing in a strong sense of place. And she's like, What about all the people that are displaced? Like she has an argument for everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Uh well, but that's uh, but that's cool. I mean, and and that's the beautiful part of dialogue and discourses and and and discussion, right? Yeah, but uh the beauty about arguing is you're discussing these different issues, and and you never know.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Uh what I walked away with is that's absolutely in keeping with the spirit of our podcast, because the idea is everybody has a story. We're all called upon to tell that story.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

And so now that certain people are able to tell their stories, yes, in the context of patriarchy and colonialism, that is a good thing, you know?

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Yeah, well, there's always been issues of power, as we know. I mean, this is forever and ever, right? It's it's a manifestation of this planet. The power, think about just the vital forces of creation, right? In in a planet or the creation of a sun, that there's going to always be these power struggles in there and what comes to the surface, what is ultimately manifested, you know, are they good ideas? Are they not good ideas? Uh, you know, what is the personality that comes out of that? Uh, I mean, I'm getting in, as you know, I can't as an artist and a brainstormer. Sometimes my um if I take ideas and concepts, sometimes they'll go off into outer space, but then I'll pull them back somehow. Just so you know. So now I'm talking about manifestation of a planet or a sun or something, but within ourselves, it's the same thing. Um, those forces, right? And and and then the dialogue between people. As soon as you had two people, you had dialogue and you had controversy and all the people.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

But the big premise of the book is all growth comes from strife. So all personal evolution or uh societal evolution comes from conflict resolution. So thank God for that tension, you know?

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Well, you build that you only build the muscle through the resistance.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

And I also like to say amen on a really good day, amen to all the differentiating thought forms. It hopefully keeps things in balance. It's hard to see it sometimes, but amen to all of it.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

And the thing is, yeah, and sometimes I don't I know we've all had this happen in our life where something happens, right, and you think it's really bad, but and then it turns out to be really good. I would say always a lot of so many times it happens.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Well, it takes sometimes it takes a while to see the humor in things, but exactly. I mean you can see your adversaries as your angels, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

It can be an adversary, it could be an experience that you had, which is like, oh my god, it's the end of the world, and then it's like, oh no, it's a brand new world, you know, it's like these flipping. I mean, and and that, of course, as we know, is what makes great stories is the turns in the story, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Well, crisis equals opportunity, too.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Okay, Virginia, jump in, get us back on track.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Yes, I'm getting back on track. Well, and you guys aren't too far from our where I was gonna go next, because you know, I I know, as you already said, Nick, that you know, in chapter one, we got into catharsis and we definitely talked a lot about it, but it comes up again in this, you know, in chapter two, and um one of the areas that it comes up is where you write, uh, pity carried a connotation of judgment in Aristotle's time. Then you reinterpret pity as judgment being purged through compassion. And even listening to you guys just talking right now, it this question that I already had formed to ask. I I feel like you guys were kind of saying this already, is um that catharsis is less about emotional dumping and more about moral recalibration.

unknown 31:33

Moral recalibration?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Emotional dumping, you said?

SPEAKER_02 31:36

I said that catharsis is less about emotional dumping and more about moral recalibration. So when I was listening to you guys talk, you know, like sitt sitting in that uncomfortable right. Um, so like for me in therapy, a lot of the times I have to let, you know, the client that I'm sitting with sit within what's their window of tolerance. So that discomfort. And and within that discomfort is when they start to go through their form of uh catharsis because they're going through that processing of understanding, and within that comes the growth. So I feel like catharsis does that also where it helps us when we're going through things and we're looking at stuff, you know, be it that it's through painting, writing, singing, whatever, whatever mode we use, right, to express ourselves, that I feel like it helps us process and recalibrate how we're seeing the world through our lens.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

I want to answer first, Craig. You know, I go for it, bro. Well, step in. No, I hope you always follow up with how it something might have resonated with you and maybe a personal anecdote or something in your creative process. But I sometimes feel like I want to answer first just because I want to clarify the intention of the book. So, in that, I think what I hear you saying is if you want to lie down, what I hear you saying is uh that, and I think this has happened a few times already, we're talking about the catharsis for the artist that the artist experiences through the creative process. But kind of separate from that is the catharsis we all experience by uh indulging the arts as patrons, right? That's the completion of the circuit. So those are two different things, but I think you were hinting that in the creative process, the artist experiences catharsis, but it's not just venting or vomiting or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Emotional dumping.

Aspirational Storytelling And Compassion

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Dumping, but that it's actually a recalibration of thought forms. That's not my wording in the book, it might be AI's wording, but I did very much try to illustrate the idea that you can have a visceral purging, which is what Aristotle would would have talked about, but let's not forget you can have a complete change in paradigms or thought forms. It's not like you're gonna literally create new neural circuits through the creative process, but maybe. So I feel like that's what I relate to is that whenever I find myself in the middle of a novel and I actually don't know where it's going, even though I structured it really well, I'm problem solving and making policy for my own life by finishing the chapter or the book. And so I feel a rewiring of my paradigms and thought forms through the creative process. So I do separate a little bit between the visceral purging one experiences and actually the outcome, which can be like we were saying earlier, Greg, the thing that gets you up in the morning, the renewed faith, whatever it is. Is that related, Virginia?

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Yeah, and that's what I was talking about. And and so that's what I was saying, like in therapy for us, it's the recalibration or it's the processing shift.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Uh or the kind of synthesizing of opposing thought forms. You have the thesis, the antithesis, and some people I've heard people say it's a sign of lack of intelligence if you can hold two opposing thought forms. I'm the complete opposite. I think if you have convergent thinking skills and you can converge ideas and be judicious and understand contradictions and the gray area, that's a sign of sophistication in my book. But I think a lot of people, you know, use art to synthesize opposing thought forms, and that's the conflict resolution we talk about in story.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yeah, and and I I've never heard somebody think that the intelligent part about having two different thought forms, because for me, and and I love to have you um jump in on this, Greg, is you can have two truths that are completely opposite of each other at the same time. I I do use that a lot where I'm like, this happened, and this is also true too when when I talk. So that's interesting. And that's how I view that's how I few view like when I'm reading a book, like, oh, so you know, I may have like the protagonist, and I'm going, yeah, all this stuff is so valid for the protagonist, and I can also see where the antagonist is coming from, you know. So I'm just curious what your guys' thoughts are on that.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

Yeah, so that uh I I maybe the word here that fits us is empathy. Um you know, or you know, you're talking about moral recalibr recalibration, uh, you know, it's like adjusting our attitude. And ultimately the foundation of that is empathy, I would say, uh, compassion, uh, listen uh having enough uh sensitivity to listen uh and and attempting to understand, instead of once again having a knee-jerk reaction to something. Um when in the context of storytelling, right? Um it's interesting how sometimes that that can be in the like, for instance, working with a turn in a story, it may feel like that character is going one direction that you do not like, or you he's the antagonist, like you're talking there, uh Nick. Uh and then but then they turn in to like the protagonist's uh you know, align aligns with the protagonist.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

I want to jump in because I want to see if this is what you're talking about. I just want to clarify. I mean, I have a lot to say about all that, but heated rivalry. I didn't I doubt either of you have seen it, but it's a total cultural zeitgeist at the moment. Everybody's tuned in. It's a big, big conversation going on about the type of aspirational storytelling it represents. And one thing I had never thought of it this way, although I do think a lot about aspirational storytelling, if that makes sense, showing models you haven't seen before that we can aspire to, as opposed to repeating old tired tropes, right? But the whole thing of apparently kind of mind-blowing. Uh, you know, it's about two hockey players that are in love, and of course they face all the same, you know, homophobic attitudes, but especially in sports, you know. And then but every step of the way, you think it's gonna go south. You think the mom's not gonna do well when he unintentionally outs himself, but uh it's all about you know, compassion and empathy, and it takes the relationship to a new level. And then when the one guy, you know, all the other hockey players are bringing their partners down on the field after the win, and this is a very real thing. My friend Sarah Tuaolo was one of the first NFL players to come out, and he said the worst part was not being able to have my partner come down on the field and celebrate. And anyway, and in heated rivalry, the hockey player calls his lover down and comes out publicly by making out with him on the ice, and you know, it was a really beautiful, it was a beautiful scene where they then they show everybody around the world watching it on TV and their jaws drop, but it was triumphant. And anyway, the whole idea is every step of the way they take you by surprise, which is kind of what you're saying. It takes a turn you don't expect, but in a very aspirational way, and you walk away going, it's not reality, but wouldn't that be great?

Meditation, Images, And Transport

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Well, the thing is, well, why not? Uh it it's it it implants then that concept. This is the thing that's amazing with or the the power in great art, right? Is that it it does connect to humanistic values, right? And it involves culture at the same time. So um if it's really doing its job, you know, and if that's what you're if that's what the artist is after, but it can. And um to increase empathy on the planet now, especially. Oh my God, what a concept, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Yeah, compassion, please. It seems kind of neat, yeah. It seems kind of needed right now. Yeah, right. Actually, in another chapter of the book, I very much go into there are studies that show not so much reading commercial fiction, but literary fiction, of course, the outcome is empathy and compassion. It's tolerance for the other because you're exposed, you know, if children read enough, they're exposed to cultures they might not otherwise have access to. But just the act of investing in the want or need of a protagonist and then hanging in there for however many pages, invested in their right, invested in their goal, and hopefully they're relatable enough to where you identify with them, that alone creates compassion. Let's bring reading back, that is my point. Bring reading back, please.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

I'll add, uh I'll also add that I know because you know I'm a meditator, and from a spiritual component, you know, so you have story, which will take you on these journeys to explain or to help us understand specific concepts, uh different narratives, but uh in the context of like meditation, it's really the goal is to remain neutral, you know, in in the context of your perceptions of things, so as not to get pulled, you know, toward toward one way or another, or uh like being like tossed on the waves of the ocean on in a storm of an ocean is is to be calm in the center of that, be the ocean, right? Instead. And so with that. So yeah, so the so the point being that with that is that by doing that, you are then able to um spark your empathy and your compassion because it allows you to then see both sides, you know, you you're able to see the entire picture, uh, which is uh is so uh it's um it's uh it just expands the breadth of our awareness, right? And and it helps us to connect and understand things better.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

I would say meditation quiets the mental chatter, it literally quiets the reverie. And so then you get those theta waves and those gamma waves, which are the opposite of mind and ego. It puts you in touch with your core consciousness. Only then can you create new, more empowering thought forms. So I'm a big fan of meditation, but just to go back to what we were saying a moment ago about sacred geometry, I think your work has that power as well. It doesn't put you in a meditative trance per se, but don't you think powerful images also maybe they don't fully get you there, but it's church to look at a you know, go to the Sistine Chapel and it transports you. So art kind of has that power. It's not meditation, but it's the next best thing. Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

Yeah, well, and it depends what it depends what we're trying to communicate. So, for instance, if a mandala, right? Like you know, those Buddhist sand paintings where they create those amazing mandalas. I'm sure you've seen them, right? There, they're like probably like four Buddhists around that huge mandala on the floor with sand, all the different colors. You know, not only is it a meditation for them, but then the person viewing the artwork, it it puts them, it's supposed to put them into more of a meditative, uh, interiorized state. But uh it depends what we're communicating, right? I mean, I for instance, like I am have my art, you know, for the most part is representational. There's specific images that are trying to uh communicate something, a story or an idea. Uh, but you know, you look at there's abstract art, right? And all its different forms from sculpture to photography and or wherever. There can be even abstract films. Uh, and that's just to evoke uh uh an emotion, right, or or a feeling. Uh and maybe they want you to um understand something intellectually in the context of that abstract piece of art, whatever it is. Uh so it's this is the thing that's amazing. It's a it's a universe of possibility when it comes to art, you know, in all its different forms.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

In the book, I I tend to go, well, the art I appreciate, you know, I'm not trying to impose my tastes, but one way of talking about the outcome of a certain process, right? Uh, or a certain creative process, is I often say, Well, the work I appreciate. And uh I tend to like films that are very low on dialogue, and it has a sort of theater delarte effect that's more primal because that does transport you. So I think experiential art, even you know, we we've gotten into in the book in this chapter, we talk about conceptual versus narrative, right? And I would love for you to chime in on that. But I agree with you, there's all kinds of outcomes. I happen to be transported experientially, if that makes sense. It's not sense, it's not intellectual at all. And that's a different type of catharsis when you're transported and something ineffable is communicated. Uh that's better than being preached to, right? And some circles would say anything didactic at all has no place in art, that's propaganda. I don't know if that makes sense to you, Greg.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. The intention. It's the intention with the the the story that you're telling in whatever format. Comes down to the intention.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah, there's process art, there's installation art, but it the experiential aspect, I think, circumvents intellect, actually.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

Wait, say that again.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Well, I'm just calling it experiential, whether it's an experimental film that's nonlinear that doesn't follow follow the Western storytelling structure, for example. Oh, right, right, right. It's more like um experimental art or process art at that point, or what's the other genre? Not installation art, but yeah, performance art.

SPEAKER_03 45:27

You know, it's it's not so many, yeah, so many different types.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Um yeah, but some I just call it experiential, like it's non-linear. You go in, you're transported despite yourself, and you come out changed. And uh sure.

Intention, Media Agendas, And Truth

SPEAKER_03 45:39

Yeah. Yeah, and then and then of course, but well, I go back to the in in intention, right? So are I mean and and and what how how so for instance you can be very light in that approach, or you can be very heavy-handed. So uh a great um uh I should say store some stories would be, you know, for instance, working in working in media, right? I I chose in the context of my art career in illustration to focus on um humanistic uh stories, uh editorial illustration, which has to do with the human experience. Uh and and but I could have made a lot more money doing advertising, you know, selling a product.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

You could have rendered you could have rendered droplets on fruit a little more droplet.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

And actually, and I have done that.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

That's my go-to for advertising illustration.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Yeah, no, my one my horror story of my illustration career was one one strawberry. Double page painting of a strawberry for Ralph's. Uh, and um it was, I just have to tell you, it was horrible. I thought it was like five thousand dollars for one painting as one strawberry, and I thought this is too good to be true, and sure enough, it was.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

You were underutilized. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

No, it's just like the amount of changes, it's like long story short, he said he said I said to him when he first was the art directors giving me the job, I said, Are you sure you want to split strawberry? What do you want to spell like a strawberry? Right, this is too good to be true.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

But wasn't there wasn't there a Beatles album? Yeah, Strawberry Fields, it was highly highly conceptual, Greg. Don't underestimate the strawberry, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 47:25

Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I but it can't at the end of the day, it ended up becoming like a photographic right, right? Sorry, Brandon is like, um, why did you hire you were miscast.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Meryl Sudreeb has a great spiel where she talks about, yeah, I tried to do commercials when I was trying to pay the rent, you know, before I started getting juice, juicy roles, like everybody else. I tried to do commercials, but she said I just always had too much subtext. Like I could look at the paper towels, but I couldn't support them 100%. There was always like water, there's water under the bridge. Yeah, exactly. She couldn't just do the one level thing, she always had to have a relationship and a motivation with the people.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

Yeah, I my my heart had to be in the in the in the art I was creating. I had to feel like I was really connected to that. And so the editorial art, editorial art, which really for the most part dealt with you know human, you know, the human condition, human ch challenges, struggles, you know, whether it's political or economic or um, you know, just all the different parts of being human. Those, those are the things I wanted to really talk about.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

The thing is, strawberries have struggles too, though, you know.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Yeah, they can. Well, especially, especially if they've got glyce, they're uh made with all sorts of pesticides, synthetic fertilizers. Yeah, poor little strawberry. But yeah, so the point I was I was going to make there is that you know, you can have uh, you know, working in media, so even though I was dealing with those specific subjects, you know, I mean, every I mean, I worked, I should say, I communicated a lot of dark subject matter. Uh, you know, everything from rape to war to um gang violence, I a lot of dark stuff. I was considered the dark illustrator there for for a while. Uh, but I always felt that it was somehow uh touching to the human facet. You know, and I wanted to uh show that there usually was some light at the end of the tunnel in there, even though it may have seemed just incredibly dark. But the the other thing that I learned is that, you know, uh most of those, most of the media, they all had their agendas. And it um it was fascinating to see how I would be given the same article by two different publications, and then they want me to illustrate it specifically like to their uh political affiliation or their agenda. Maybe, maybe they were for the war in Iraq or something, and then the other wasn't for the war. So they want me, so I'm gonna, you know, no, I just want to be more stay keep to the truth, it's stay neutral and really just try and capture the essence of what this article is about. Let's not make so much an opinion about it in one way or the other.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Well, tell me if this resonates, though, because I do see the redemption in your work. Even the darkest work does offer a little bit of redemption. It uh, but that's in the eye of the beholder. And I know you've you've had your own arc, right, in terms of how much redemption is brought in. But there's also the idea of the beauty and the decay, or the you know, embracing the shadow, the beauty, and we artists have an upper hand at seeing the beauty in the traditionally bad, negative, dark. Those are binary categories that Western society invented. In Eastern philosophy and eastern culture, you have a more yin and yang, a complementary relationship.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

So we we don't always buy the binary black and white tropes. So I think you expose the beauty in the traditionally dark imagery.

SPEAKER_03 50:59

Oh, well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Well, yeah, yeah, and Thomas More, Thomas More would say we've got to embrace our shadow and face off with it. Absolutely, and that's going back to Catharsis, even Guillermo del Toro, a lot of horror auteurs will say facing off with our shadow, and you know, in the hero's journey, facing off with whether it's uh Theseus and the Minotaur or Beowulf, it's a great, great parable for humanity facing off with its basist instincts, you know. Anyway, I think it all has value, and I do think your work has evolved, but I'm wondering if you relate to that at all, if it was intentional at all in staying apolitical and not catering your imagery to their political agendas by staying neutral. Do you also feel like there's a human level to all stories that way transcends politics?

Shadow, Redemption, And Horror

SPEAKER_03 51:51

Absolutely. And well, I have to say, for me, uh, I am I I consider myself the eternal optimist. Uh, maybe that's my spiritual uh bones, you know, speaking there. Um, but uh this is why no matter how dark the thing is, uh I always feel that there is some light. There's always light in there. And and I think part of that is because for my own spiritual practices, I believe there's a divinity in all of us. There's a deeper, there's a deeper facet, which is if you want to call it God or spirit, there is that goodness, there is that god-like, goddess-like power uh inside all of us, and which is infinite, right? And so if we have that, even though we live in this world of duality of right and wrong and dark and light and all these extremes, right? And and that we're we're we live in this place where our senses are always pulled into that world, you know, to remember, and this is where meditation is helpful, that you come back to the center, you realize, oh no, ultimately there's goodness, the light is always going to be stronger than the darkness. And that is inside me that that's who that's the core of who I am. And so in my art, there is always probably going to be some facet of that reflective, you see. Uh, and that's just my personal story, I think, coming out uh. It's your gift, though.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

It's it's your gift to the rest of us. And you know, I've I've often said, again, the art I appreciate, not that there's a right way or a wrong way to go about life, but I strive to bring just enough divinity in to daily life, you know, and I think a lot of art is about showing the profound and the seemingly mundane or the numinous in the mundane. And that's what I love about your work. Uh is it's kind of you're a conduit and you're reminding people of what they already know, but I call it divinity.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

I have perfect. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

I have a premise that we're not meant to live in that space all day, every day. We need it in glimpses, small glimpses that sustain us.

SPEAKER_03 53:57

Yeah, I mean, I tell you for me, well, for me, it's my foundation and it's and it keeps me sane, it keeps me moving forward, it keeps me, like you said, uh the eternal optimist. Uh, this is why no matter what happens, I know that somehow, somehow, you know, up until death, when I'm out of here and I've this physical body is thrown off. This I throw off this mortal coil. Uh I know through my meditations there's something else going on there. And that there's a continuation, there's an evolution of that. Um, I like we're all sort of indestructible, but we don't know it, you know, because we're in this physical reality.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

You're reminding us of our eternal nature. Yeah, and it couldn't be more obvious that that's what we need right now. Couldn't be more obvious. It's huge. And the AI thing enters into that conversation.

SPEAKER_03 54:43

And in fact, uh, so you know, Pramahanzo Yogananda was talking about um the uh the challenges that we have on the planet. And he now he he I I'm sort of paraphrasing here, but he said, you know, all your political challenges, you know, they're all spirituals, it's a spiritual solution at the end of the day, and it's an inside-out job. And so you can have treaties, you can have all these different uh agreements, you know. But the thing is, at the end of the day, that's all outside in. You know, you really need every if the more you're looking at and and living in the world, looking at the world, living in the world from the inside out, you know, the deeper part of uh us as individuals, as countries, right? Uh, then there'll be be more understanding. Um, it'll make more sense at the end of the day. And whatever uh agreements you have will probably last, they'll have a little more heft uh um to them.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

At this moment, it couldn't be clear to me, and I don't want to get quote political, but as we said, there are human issues that transcend politics. What's become ultra clear with the tariff conversation and you know just this week is that for an individual who is completely transactional that's not guided by moral principles or ethics at all, the human element is the first thing to go. And I think we are being called upon to remember our humanity. I don't know if that makes sense, but this week I just thought, ooh, for a transactional individual, nothing has a moral basis or an ethical basis. And you could argue those two terms talk about our responsibility to one another, our empathy and our compassion. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 56:36

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

It's so needed.

SPEAKER_03 56:39

Yeah, I would agree. I agree with that. And this is why this is where it's interesting, is where adversity can be also a teacher, and um and it can remind us of who we are truly and and where are you living your life from.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Well, I think a lot of things are coming to a head for that reason to usher us into a new new paradigm. It's painful, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

It's pushing us, it's pushing us as individuals, right? It's kind of an outside-in approach, but if it gets you inside of yourself, you know, it to the deeper part, connecting to the deeper part of your of your reality, beyond the all this the physical stuff. I mean, however deep you can go, then at the end of the day, it's a positive thing.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Yeah. Well, we can't. But it can be painful, as you say. Yeah. Well, you're prompting a story. I'll just real quick, because this is about storytelling. It's it's a metaphor. I wrote a story about going to the Dead Sea in Israel. And everybody Yeah, I was working over there, but I I went many times to a place called Ayn Geti. But you can slather yourself in the black mud. I'm sure you know about that tradition. And people literally come from the world over to have their baptism and slather themselves, and it's it's cleansing, it's spiritually cleansing. Well, I I did it and it really felt I mean it smells like asphalt for one, but I it kind of stings. And I noticed, ooh, it's stinging in pr in in little places, and I washed it off and ooh, they stayed red. Well, later they turned out to be my skin cancers that I didn't know about.

SPEAKER_03 58:16

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

So I had them excised. But I thought, you know, for a while I was like, hmm, this doesn't feel spiritual.

SPEAKER_03 58:23

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

Great story. We need attention paid to it. So if Trump is the cancer and he's, I think, I see it like a boil coming to the surface, and it's the worst of humanity. Oh, now I said it.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:41

Well, and it's all yeah, and it's you know, politics are just filled with that, as we know. It's and from time immemorial, it has been that way. Uh, it's like, I don't know, to want to be in part of a it to be in a part of politics is I don't know, that is one very strange place. Uh, because at the end of the day, uh, at least from my personal experience, um, is you know, is there there is to the uh potential to get easily corrupted, uh is is it's like almost a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

I'm often the only one that says, uh I'm not as cynical, you know, that really popular rhetoric, oh, they're all corrupt. I'm the one who will go, actually, over time, yes, people have a lifestyle they want to keep up, so they just want to get re-elected above all else. So they sell out and they have their earmarks, right? And they're most of it and they're lobbyists, they succumb to the lobbyists and all yeah, but it's all business. I'm the one guy that will say there are public servants who have gotten off their ass and done more than you. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:45

Oh, it's there's always good people.

Inner Tech, AI, And Divinity

SPEAKER_00 59:47

I agree a hundred percent with that, including Hillary Clinton and there's a million others that do more than any of us to be a public servant and to enforce social change. That said, yes, most of them get corrupted at some point, but that's why we artists, not just militant activists, but we artists need to be at the forefront of all social reform. And we are. That's my whole book. We are actually, and I will persuasion persuasion only goes so far. I will add this art changes minds by touching hearts.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:17

Okay, I agree with you 100%. And I will I want to add that if you look throughout history, what is usually left? It's the art, it's the art.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Well, and unless originally destroys it, unless the Taliban catch hammer to it and destroys it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

Yeah, yeah, yes, but in general, I'm saying if you look out throughout all history, what is left? It's the beautiful, it's even if it's parts of those magnificent, look at the Parthenon, right? So that was you knew just by looking at the remnants of that, right? That it's like, oh my God, that's magnificent. Even the bones of that thing still standing there. It's magnificent, right? The size of it is like, whoa, monolithic, you know, sculptures that they found at the bottom of the ocean, you know, uh, or or sculptures that have survived. It's like when we look, at least in my from my experience, you look back, and it's like those are the parts. It's not like, you know, sometimes the you hear so much about the wars and the destruction, of course, and so many different levels, but but the goodness, right, of humanity, the beauty that's left, those the the architecture. Uh, they could be it could have been like those uh frescoes in Pompeii that all got covered up with ashes and then re resurfaced, or mosaics, you know, or the pyramids, you know, throughout history that are thousands of pyramids around the planet. It's like, oh my God. I mean, not only is it it's not just Egypt, all over the entire planet, thousands and thousands of these unbelievable structures. It's like, whoa, what were there? There was man at one point was so far advanced they were able to create these things, temples. Um, so that's that's what for me it gives me hope, right? And that's where I believe that art has such a um, I'm trying to look for what's a better word than you know, power. It's uh it's a strength, you know, and even in our own little way, you know, when we're gone, our physical bonds are gone, whatever we leave. Uh, if we really feel it's important, I do believe it's important that we do do it because then we we are gone, you don't know how that's going to still touch somebody.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Yeah, I guess what I hear in that is like a lot of people worry about legacy on paper, but it's really the love, right, that you gave and exchange while you were here.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

But I I guess I'm I'm agreeing with you 100%, but I'm just gonna preach a little bit and say this is largely why we have a podcast, and it is fascinating, Virginia. I don't know if you've noticed in the three years that we've done this, fascism has taken hold, and the arts are always the first thing to go, and these storytellers are always the first ones to be silenced because it's well known, even subconsciously, by all of us, this is how we transform, more so than persuasion or propaganda. So the mission of our podcast has become so much more important since we started it. Just following up on what you said with a little bit of preaching, because we're coming to the end here. I'm agreeing with you, but we have to protect it. Pyramids do come and the hardest thing for me to watch in all of this, whether it's the Arab Spring or some of the uprisings or the Taliban. When they take sledgehammers, I mean, I can watch starving children in the streets in a war-torn country, and I don't shed a tear. When they took the sledgehammers to the artwork, that is hard for me to watch. So I'm just saying we need to protect it. It's not a given. I agree. Not a given.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:55

Yeah, no, I agree with that 100%. But it is fascinating how it does seem that the art survives somehow throughout time. It is interesting. I I maybe it's some divine little like uh boon that's uh that's afforded us humans on this planet. It's like, all right, you can contempt completely destroy your planet, but we're gonna leave a little of that beauty left.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

Well, it's like Trump taking over the Kennedy Center. Let's leave the beauty, but do not let Trump chisel his name on it, please.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:25

Yeah, because he yeah, I agree. Yeah, I mean, this is as we know, and politics is a mess, it's it's been the same as forever. Uh and then this, I I so for me, I I'll come to that little mantra in my head that says, This too shall pass.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

Exactly. We hope, we pray. Well, I do think, I mean, on a really good day, we can all see it's bringing things to the surface for us to address, and these are all opportunities for paradigm shift. So that's perfect. We'll be dead and gone.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:56

But I love it. That could be a bumper sticker.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

That's what I'm here for. Okay, Virginia. We strayed from your outline five minutes in. We never got back to it. We're coming up on an hour and a half. That's what's happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:11

Well, and I wouldn't, I'm gonna steer us back because you guys, I mean, you did, because where we were starting to head to, anyways, was talking about ethos, pathos, and logos and propaganda, which we don't need to go there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

That's been kind of like there's no time to go there.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

Well, and and you guys covered a lot of that anyways. And I just wanted to come back to a lot of what I heard, especially what Greg, when you were sharing about like the strawberry and you know, the different artwork that you've that you've done, you know, where you know, where you had two different, you know, based off their um ideologies of like, well, you know, we support this, but we don't support it. And you're working on this, and you're like, wow, so interesting to see these two different perspectives, is you, you know, and and Nick, you brought up too, that humanistic side, which we see, and I know you talk about that a lot in this book too. And I think that's why, again, you know, even when we see just the pieces of like art from the past, be that sculptures, pottery, whatever, um, you know, that that's that humanistic element that just we can't even though propaganda persuasion tries to squash it, it can't die.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

Correct. So art reminds us reminds us of our humanity sounding.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

Yeah. So that's that's that's what I really feel like when we talk about catharsis, is that's what it is. It's that humanity that just can't be squashed, that just always finds, even if it's that little glimmer.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

It finds a way.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

Well, God, you guys are inspiring. I almost can't feel my headache.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:40

Well, that's good.

Politics, Power, And Humanity

SPEAKER_03 1:06:41

I do have I do have another little point I'd like to make that's a sort of a spin off. On that, the power of symbols, right? Art as a symbol. Um, that uh if you think about art throughout your life, whether it's a it could be music, film, theater, um, it could be a painting. I was just saying, in the context of a painting, if you think of like, for instance, like that Michelangelo, Michelangelo has so many iconic pieces, like maybe for instance in the Sistine Chapel, where you know God, that picture of God is touching the finger of Adam, right? So just that little image right there, those two hands, you know, the fingers touching, you know, that. Or you look at like, for instance, uh Andy Warhol's the Campbell soup can't can, you know, talking all about consumerism, right? And then I like in for instance, I then I look at my like my career, my art career, and I think, oh, well, did I have any uh specific art pieces that might have been have a timeless nature? And I think, oh, well, maybe there's one piece, I don't know if you remember it, it's I called it the art heart, and it's this heart, uh, this heart, and then you got this bouquet of flowers and all these different elements coming out of the aorta and the different parts of the heart at the top. It's all about creativity, right? And there's this living creativity that beats, you know, within all of our hearts. Um, so at the end of the day, uh that catharsis, right, in its small little moments, in its larger moments, uh art is crucial um to that, you know, and it helps sustain us, I think, just living day-to-day.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Those are the many catharses you were talking about, how we need to partake in art, right? On a regular basis because it's not a one and done. It's it's how we renew. Exactly. I love that. Um, and then just bringing like the camel soup thing to mind and other iconic images. It's true, it's the art that remains because it is largely how we define ourselves, these pieces of art that you referred to. You know, God, I mean, that says it all, just divinity, right, reaching down and touching the finger of man. And so maybe um that to demonstration that it is what matters and it's what lasts, but it's also the stories by which we define ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:04

Yes. I I have a cousin, Italian cousin, Luca Costelli, who he lives in Italy, and he is a salesman for this company that sells aluminum, right? And you think, oh God, that I mean, I'm thinking for myself, God, I don't, I don't know how I could handle that. But the thing is, he travels all over the world and he meets all these different people. You know, he's in China, he was just now uh in India, he goes all over, and so through his own the art spirit inside himself, even though he's he's um working for a company that sells aluminum sheets and aluminum for different in different capacity, uh, different things, he's it's his nature and his spirit, the loving side who he is that connects. So he's not just he's not just selling a piece of aluminum, he's like he's introducing himself to the world and making the world smaller in some respects. Um, and so his art, right, is that communication and meeting people.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Yeah, it's we all have it. Beautiful, and I I think that's what we're on the cusp of. The paradigm we're on the cusp of is bringing intention to whatever it is you're doing for the collective, you know. We need our manual labors, we need it all. And I don't want to start get too into the tripart state where we all have our gifts and we're meant to contribute them. It sounds a little elitist, but I do think bringing humanity into even the corporate realm is what we're on the cusp of. Trader Joe's, for example, has the business model where they talk about love in conference rooms.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:43

Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:44

What place does love have in business? Oh, I don't know, maybe it's everything uh Christmas Carol taught us, everything Dickens taught us through the Scrooge. We're finally putting some of that into practice. And then Marianne Williamson talking about not ruling but governing with love in mind, that's very new. And I think that's where we're headed.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:05

It's huge, it's so important. And catharsis, that's that is love, is probably the ultimate catharsis, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

Explain that, I don't know. Getting into that, well, I would agree with you if this is what you mean, how in every moment a miracle is a shift from fear to love, and so most transactional people, like we were saying, are operating out of complete fear with every decision. Yes, it takes a miracle to shift to a place of love, and that's the intention we're talking about. So in every moment we have the power to do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:38

Even just getting up in the morning, right? Are you like, oh damn, uh, it's another day, or it's like, oh yeah, all right, it's another day.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

Yeah, it sounds so corny, but it's everything. Like choosing to see the world through the eyes of love is a daily commitment, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:55

Absolutely, yes. And so we're it is a bit of a workout too, because we have to remind, especially if you're in pain, you know, if you're depressed, if you're in physical pain, physical pain, it could be debilitated. Like you, you're a perfect example. We're we're you're you've got a headache through this entire uh interview here, you know, and you yet you've been very uplifted and uplifting and loving, and um, you know, your insights are coming through as you've transcended it. It's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

Thank you for saying, man. And for our listeners, remember life is story, and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively. We can tell a new story. See you next time.