Chapter One Roundtable Part Two: STORY and TRANSFORMATION

Order the book that inspired the podcast, Language of the Soul: How Story Became the Means by which We Transform at dominickdomingo.com/books

When the plot of life breaks, the real story begins. We open Season Three of Language of the Soul Podcast by returning to the book that inspired it, using  Chapter One: STORY and TRANSFORMATION to map the path from crisis to opportunity, from strife to paradigm shift. Conflict resolution is the means by which we transform, individually and collectively. Through the ripple effect, personal transformation always equals cultural evolution. To help us explore the content of the book, were joined by regular guests Mythologist and Midlife Coach Andrea Slominski, PhD and Author, Vocal Coach and Creativist Rene Urbanovich. Together, we connect narrative therapy, archetypes and the collective unconscious with the chemical basis of storytelling to show why stories are more than entertainment. They’re the means by which we transform.

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Chapters

• 1:30 Season Three Orientation
• 4:41 Want Versus Need In Transformation
• 10:34 Tragedy, Redemption, And The Human Psyche
• 17:56 Dorothy, The Wizard, And Inner Answers
• 27:03 Universal Arcs And The Wounded Healer
• 38:13 Angel’s Cocktail Versus Devil’s Cocktail
• 49:27 Dopamine, Oxytocin, And Memory
• 1:00:14 Catharsis, Horror, And Intention
• 1:10:57 Media, Algorithms, And Addiction
• 1:21:40 Art As Mirror And Cultural Shift
• 1:32:09 Fear Chemistry And Us Versus Them

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:45

Hi guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul Podcast, where life is story. I'm Dominic Domingo, author of Language of the Soul, How Story Became the Means by Which We Transformed, the book that inspired this podcast. And straight out the gate, I'm going to bring in my partner in crime, author and mental health counselor, Virginia Grenier. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Hi, I'm glad to be here again.

SPEAKER_05 1:10

Glad to have you for our third season. And on that note, you're really good at kind of breaking down what we're up to these days. So in the third season, maybe give new listeners a chance to get oriented and hear what we're all about. I think we're in our fifth episode addressing the book itself.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yep, that's correct. So if you're just tuning in for the first time to this episode, I highly encourage everybody to go back to Nick reading the intro of the book for the intro to the book, Language of the Soul. And then after that, we have we're just Nick and I just having a discussion about the intro and what was covered in that material. Then there's Nick reading chapter one. And then last week we did a discussion on chapter one where we focused on the philosophical foundation, why story matters, why it's inseparable from being human, and why it becomes essentially vital to moments of culture and personal upheaval. And so today we're going to be going different, and I'm going to be shifting our lens in chapter one to a much narrower lens as we continue on.

SPEAKER_05 2:22

I'm excited to see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:25

Yeah. Thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Well, I was going to say chapter one doesn't just argue, you know, like like last week when we were talking um about how story transforms us. It explains how that transformation happens. So that's just what I mean by we're going to go a little bit narrower in our discussion today is because we're going to be looking at some of that mechanism to us um looking at how story transforms. So it's just slowing things down, going a little bit more linear through the chapter and looking more closely at how story works.

SPEAKER_05 2:55

I love it. Yeah, I'm so looking forward to being specific. Because as we said, they can become kind of platitudes or catchphrases, you know, and I do like to be specific. So I'm looking forward to it. And then for our listeners, if you're a regular listener, we fantasize that we have them. Uh last week was, again, the first discussion. I'm calling them round tables. And today it does feel more like a round table because there's four of us. Uh, but anyway, last week a dear friend came on whom I adore, and she's back today, mythologist and midlife coach Andrea Slaminsky. And our second guest today is another repeat guest who also happens to be a dear friend and my sister, author, vocal coach, and creativist Renee Urbanovich. Welcome, ladies.

unknown 3:40

Hi.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Hi, good morning, good morning.

SPEAKER_05 3:43

Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah, we're glad to have you guys. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

It's awesome to be back. Okay.

Want Versus Need In Transformation

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Well, I if Nick's up for it, I'm ready to dive in since I get to take the wheelhouse this time because that's how this whole season is kind of working out as we dive into the chapters.

SPEAKER_05 4:02

Let's do it. Oh yeah, you're a great, you're a great moderator. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Okay. All right. So I've kind of already let you as a listening audience know what the plan is. So I'm just gonna dive in with our first questions. We're in chapter one, and early in chapter one, we made it very clear the distinction between want and need. So, like I said, if you can go back, re-listen to that round table, highly suggest it. So, Nick, you talked about how transformation doesn't just occur when a character gets what they want or when they are confronted with what they actually need. So, I'm wondering if you can stay with that distinction and separate want from need to the what is essential in transformation of a story.

SPEAKER_05 4:48

Yeah, I hope you guys have something to say about this and can dovetail off of it. But it's pretty technical, actually. In the introduction, I say, well, I don't really want to do a nuts and bolts of craft or technique book. I want to talk about why we tell stories in the first place. But it is directly related, right, to transformation on the part of the patron, which is why I go into want and need. We evolve along with the protagonist because we're invested in their goal. So the distinction I make in the book, and I I hate to repeat the content of the book, but for those who don't know, you know, some films that maybe don't have literary value or really don't have much to say, it sounds very elitist, but they might not have a want and a need, which is a very much a screenwriting principle. And Andrea, I know you're going to be able to speak to this. They might just have a goal. The goal is not split into a want and a higher need. I need to save the president from terrorists, and I want to. It's the same, right? But when there's maybe thematic content to be imparted, or what I'm calling something to say, there is a want and a need in screenwriting. So some of us have seen a film where like, you know exactly what the protagonist should or could or might want to do, and you're like, just do it, just do it. But they have some kind of fatal flaw or some kind of blinders on, uh, or some kind of hubris that prevents them from seeing the bigger picture. And that's the higher need. So I use Wizard of Oz as an example in the book because at one point pretty much everyone had read or seen it, and that's no longer the case, sadly. But um, I don't know. We can go into some examples of a want and a higher need if you want. But do you guys feel that on a psychological perspective, this is how we operate in life? Maybe do you see the parallel? Or is it just that we transform along with the protagonist by partaking in storytelling?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

That's a really good question. It always brings me back to the individual's consciousness about their own story, right? If they're if they're lucid or yeah, well, I mean, you know, we can think about what we're going through on our daily lives and what we're trying to accomplish, but then when we try to look at the bigger picture of our lives, right? When you're talking about looking at the bigger picture in terms of the narrative, um, that opens up a whole different interpretation of story for personal narrative, kind of around meaning, purpose, and belonging, I think.

SPEAKER_05 7:15

Yeah, I love that. I just thought of uh in my own perception, my own worldview, this just occurred to me. By definition, if neither the want nor a higher need are meant, by definition, it's a tragedy, right? And then if something redemptive is imparted, because usually the higher need is met, therein lies the redemptive content or the theme. But I think it's interesting. Like if everything's futile and nobody learns or grows from a conflict, that is tragic. And we say it all, oh, how tragic, you know, uh that person went to their grave without really doing their homework, their spiritual homework. Uh, we say that in vernacular language. Oh, it's tragic.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 7:59

It is tragic when somebody has a spiritual opportunity thrown in their path and they kind of don't take it, or it's hard for us to judge from the outside. But I don't know. I just thought that was interesting. We do view things as tragic when nothing is gained.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

And there's no transformation. And in and when you watch someone go through that, you feel you know, it's not you because sometimes we can't see our own deficits and our own gaps. But when you can see it in a protagonist, you're gonna learn from that too that we all have challenges. And when our the person in the story or the movie or whatever is it's tragic. That's why it's a tragedy, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:37

And there it's hard to watch, right? It's hard to watch people like bumper cars, maybe, you know. Not really, am I making sense?

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Yeah, absolutely. It's like watching, it's like like the slow motion train wreck, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:50

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Well, and I think when we start to look at too what we're assigning on the meaning of like a want or a need, I think it and and the tragedies start to come into play, right? The conflicts that are we're facing, moving toward those things, and and hopefully we're growing because we're focusing on that clarity of mind of why that's happening and and realizing, okay, what what needs to fundamentally change within, and which is what we see happen on you know, within the pages of a book or on the silver screen, right? We start to see that play out with the protagonist.

SPEAKER_05 9:27

I wonder for listeners, I don't want to repeat the entire book. We're trying to parallel and maybe dovetail off of it, but is there any value to using that wizard of oz example? Renee, I like when you talk about the wounded healer aspect, which is one of the sub-themes. So, anyone mind if I quickly break down the Wizard of Oz just for discussion?

Tragedy, Redemption, And The Human Psyche

SPEAKER_01 9:47

No, it's so profound and timeless. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 9:50

Okay, and it really speaks to how the story is metaphorical. So, real quick, everybody will and I do ask my students, I don't tell them. I ask, and eventually the answers come out. It's fascinating. But I say, you know, what is Dorothy's goal? And pretty much everyone will say to get home to Kansas. You know, once the story's in motion, you could say she runs away for a variety of reasons, and we'll get into that in a moment. She has a bigger uh want throughout. But once she's on that hero's journey or that rabbit hole tale or um whatever you want to call it, the Odyssey, the goal is to get home to Kansas. She wants specifically the wizard to send her home to Kansas. So let's say the goal is to get home to Kansas. The want is for the wizard to send her home to Kansas. What's the actual need? What did she really need to do to get home to Kansas? Let's pretend this is a glass. Anyone, anyone? She wants the wizard to send her home to Kansas. That's not how she got home to Kansas. How did she ultimately get home?

SPEAKER_01 10:49

She had to click her heels three times.

SPEAKER_05 10:52

Exactly. So then in the book, I say, yeah, and that doesn't sound very redemptive or resonant as far as plots go, but it's metaphorical. So then what is wanting the wizard to send her home symbolic of that might be universal in the human condition? What's the metaphorical version of her want is for the wizard to send her home?

SPEAKER_01 11:14

It's that we want other people to make us happy, like our husbands or our children or our friends, and we're the only ones that can find happiness within. It's external versus internal.

SPEAKER_05 11:25

Right. And there's a million ways to word it, but yeah, looking for contentment outside of ourselves or extrinsic rather than intrinsic, right? A million ways to word it. Looking for answers or contentment or well-being or tranquility, call it what you want, outside ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Right.

SPEAKER_05 11:41

All we need is within. And then in the book, I go into, you know, there's literally a line that says, if I ever go looking for my heart's desire, I'll never look any further than my own backyard, basically. Okay, so the want on a really superficial level is wants the wizard to send her home, needs to have and click her heels together to get home. Symbolic of or metaphorical for she wants answers outside of herself when she has the goods within. That sound right?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:12

Okay, so it may not be profound or earth-shattering to some people, but it's it's pretty bare bones. I think it's a great example. And so the theme, I guess what I try to impart in the book is the theme directly results from the resolution of that conflict. And again, if neither the want or the need are met, you're left with this uh this feeling of futility, and that's called a tragedy. But then some would say, well, that's why it's a cautionary tale, because you walk away and go, Oh, I ain't gonna do that, and I'm gonna try something different. You know, maybe Andrea, you have some Shakespearean tragedies where you know the audience walks away and goes, Oh, yeah, family vendetta, bad, bad.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

That's a dark road to um yeah, or or going back to the Greek, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 12:57

Yeah, examples, because I put a couple in the book, but I'm not, you know, an expert. Oh, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Oh, yeah. Well, um, certainly, of course, Romeo and Juliet, they're you know, that's that's if when I think of you know Shakespeare, that that sort of comes up to the to the top there, and and is probably mostly known by by by the listeners.

SPEAKER_05 13:17

But um well, what do you think though is the cautionary tale there? Don't what are we not supposed to do? What is it warning us? Is it warning us against something?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_05 13:29

Tell tell me. I could I could guess.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

I mean, I studied it many times, but I have a really bad memory. But as an adult rut now, I would say that it warns us against impetuousness and uh and um youth and the dangers of being too passionate for your own good.

SPEAKER_05 13:47

I don't know, like impulsivity almost.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Yeah, impulsivity. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:54

And but it's also about family vendetta, too. I think Titus is about that, like the how dangerous it is. So when you have the month, I mean, again, I don't know it that well either, but the Montague and the Capulets, that's the context. Isn't it almost like they were martyred for this ongoing vendetta that is so silly?

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Yes, it's it's almost a lesson about the restrictive, the restrictive nature of um of cultural rules of morality, right? Extended from from one generation to the next, right?

SPEAKER_05 14:29

Yep. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's both. It's probably about impulsivity on their part, and then sadly they didn't choose the you know, milieu into which they were born, and you could say that's socialization, or you know, I think there's so many levels, like, well, that's just ego versus uh love.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah, I mean, you know, you you could extrapolate it to not only just the family vendettas, but you could extrapolate it to um the history of um interracial marriage, you could extrapolate it into the history of um of um the gay rights movement, you could extrapolate it. I mean, in terms of the the dynamics between family and culture and forbidden love, right?

SPEAKER_05 15:16

Well, that's the big template, isn't it? Forbidden love. Well, that's why you know a lot of LGBTQ stories up the stakes or choose, you know, really repressive eras during which uh it wasn't okay, because it becomes forbidden love, if that makes sense. So yeah, but that's what I was calling ego. Like if you look at all these mechanisms in social conditioning that are all complete bullshit, it's really not humans acting according to their potential, it's the opposite. It's the base instincts and the base drives, and frankly, everything that I think we're evolving out of. But socialization, bad stuff.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah, you know, it it it I mean, I don't I don't want to leap forward here in the conversation, but it's it it becomes a um it becomes a relative of the devil's cocktail when these right stories.

SPEAKER_05 16:05

Are we gonna revisit that?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, that gets kind of moralistic too when we get it to Yeah, you know well, um let's let's see how it comes up because here's here's kind of our is going to take us as and you guys are already kind of dancing around where we could go with this. Um, so in the book, it also outlines common character arcs and moving from self self-doubt to empowerment, ignorance to insight. And so I'm curious what and you guys, whoever wants to jump in first on this, is why do these particular arcs show up again and again in storytelling across cultures and time?

SPEAKER_05 16:38

I think our mythologists should probably answer that one. Well, you could argue every hero's journey is about you know, doubt like to empowerment, and Miyazaki films are always about becoming meek to empowered. But yeah, why in the hero's journey maybe do these always recur?

Dorothy, The Wizard, And Inner Answers

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Because these are the universal themes of what it means to live a human life, right? These are the universal themes, stories, struggles, uh, quandaries, problems that that we face in in living our lives, and and myths show us that we're living a very personal experience of a universal rite of passage. Of that. So that's why these stories keep coming up, because every generation that's born has to live through these same universal rites of passage.

SPEAKER_05 17:32

Yep. And that's yeah, that's largely what story does. It teaches us how to live in the world, and it is the means by which we impart, I call it the Noah sphere, right? But all these concepts. Story is image-based, but it's really the way to impart the conceptual realm. Renee, I want to back up a little bit because I I'd love for you to talk about the um wounded healer. We didn't get into that, but for sorry to backtrack Virginia, and just a tiny bit. It was a missed opportunity. Because what I failed to say is, yeah, it is related to character arc, actually. When you look at Dorothy's journey, it's reflected in all the secondary characters' arcs as well. I won't break them all down, but you know, I would say it's pretty obvious the the lion doesn't think he possesses courage, but only on that yellow brick road journey does he realize, oh, I actually did stick up for my friends. The Tin Man doesn't have a brain, but you know what? He solved a lot of problems on that yellow brick road journey. And then who's the third one? Scarecrow.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Heart.

SPEAKER_05 18:30

Scarecrow heart, yes. And so he realizes, wow, I have developed affinity and I have bonded with my friends on this journey. And so they all intrinsically had what they were seeking to begin with. So I wanted to say that that all the character arcs support the main theme in a in a really well-written story. But a secondary theme, you know, a secondary theme is the wounded healer. Do you remember that concept well enough, Renee, to share that with us?

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Well, I mean, I I lived it and I'm still somewhat living it, but not so much anymore. But um uh Henri, Henri Nouan, new one, he wrote a book called The Wounded Healer, and that's the story of the Christ, right? And so with Dorothy, though, she didn't know how to get home. So, but she brought people along because her hunger to get home, which looks like on the outside, is just the external, but on the inside, it's we all have the journey to self. That's the I guess that's what we're talking about, being human. But the main, the main journey is journey to self. And then once you discover the jewel of self, which is not, you know, you didn't believe in yourself and you had the power the whole time. Every character in the Wizard of Oz, including Dorothy, and she brought everybody along with her. She's a wounded healer because she didn't have the answer, and she still led everyone and through her curiosity and her, you know, desires to go deeper, I guess, to follow the yellow brick road, she she healed others.

SPEAKER_05 20:01

Beautiful. Really, that's that's what I wish people would key into, you know. I look for those luminaries in life. Not you know, Virginia and I have agreed. We've had a lot of people on this podcast that have a fire, and it's not just turning, you know, lemons into lemonade, but they've had some event in their life that drove them to not just make sense of their trials and tribulations, but impart, impart it to others, whatever their spiritual lessons were. You know, because the world can uh be a dark place. And so when I see somebody like Oprah and younger generations effing hate her because they didn't grow up with her, I saw her become what she is, a mogul. They focus on the things they find suspect. I feel like, oh my god, thank God for the Oprah's of the world, because they are creating a platform so that others can not ride their coattails, but literally become their best selves as well. I love Ellen, she's been canceled as well. But it's like, oh my god, look at all the people whose lives she affected, and again, becoming their best selves because of the agency she created for herself. Is that a similar thing, Renee?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

I think it is. I mean, the whole idea that um, you know, you can't, I don't even know why people get canceled when they're all they're trying to do is do something good, you know, like in the case.

SPEAKER_05 21:22

Because people are cynical. Younger people are cynical of somebody with that much power, a woman with as much power as Oprah. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:29

They're okay with throwing the baby out with the bathwater because it's there's so much going on that they think they can toss one person's story like in the heights got canceled because they accidentally only had brown people and they didn't have any black people. Whoopsie. So they it didn't win anything, and no one went to see it, and it was just brilliant. And the same thing with White Lotus, it became canceled because it was a white man who wrote it, but all it was trying to do was enlighten the white people that were so in engrossed in in this system of injustice. We are we don't even see it when you're you're white. He's just trying to show everyone, but he got canceled because he accidentally got rich. Oops. So that they it's the same thing with photography. Now that I'm thinking about it, we were talking about photographs the other day and um the daguerreotype and all of that, they were so rare, right? They were so rare. And so they were so valuable. And now photographs are a million trillion, a dime a dozen, and they're not that valuable. Well, now in this day and age, there's so many people making movies. There's an Ellen, there's a there's an Oprah, there's so many people. We can just throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yeah, you're trying to change your world, but we don't like this one thing that you did, and they throw the baby out with the bathwater, and they're not valuing the kind of effort that it took for us to stand on their shoulders.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

Or for this new generation that's a whole right council culture and um I think there's a lot in there, image saturated society, right? You you didn't used to be able to see the Taj Mahal or somebody, some influencer sitting on top of an elephant. We see it all now, but I I think what in there somewhere is like the gauge of authenticity is way off. And there is a cynicism. So it's like know your allies when you see them, number one, and know somebody who has an authentic intention that's admirable without being cynical about their motives, just because the outcome is ooh, they got rich as a result. So I think there's a lot in there. There's a whole episode in there, in fact.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Well, Oprah, for sure, we watched Oprah be the wounded healer and she's healed now. So she people just don't see that she was ever broken, and that the people that followed her and watched her and read her, you know, her books and her magazines, they became healed too. So that's what you know, that's what these journeys are about is the transformation. And so when you have in the book, you write that storytelling is to hold up the mirror to society. So all of these myths, all of these stories are holding up the mirror for ultimate transformation, which you always say, you and Virginia, and this whole podcast starts in the individual heart and then it collectively goes out and literally changes culture. So I mean, wounded healer, it it we're all broken. Everybody's on a journey to self. So we all become wounded, we all must become wounded healers unless we just become hermits.

SPEAKER_05 24:22

Right. Or miss an opportunity, right? I mean, I like to think we're all threads in the big tapestry, right? And if we don't tell our stories, we're maybe robbing the collective of a very important worldview or thought form or paradigm, you know. I think we're all being called upon to share our subjective experience, just my personal view.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, I like that. So so to go back to how Andre brought up um the angels and devil's cocktail, um, so you do reference that in in chapter one um by David Phillips, where he calls the angel's cocktail and the devil's cocktail, not as moral judgments, but as outcomes. And I feel like we've been danced around that concept as well. Um, you know, so staying strictly with outcomes, how would each of you describe the difference between these two modes of storytelling?

SPEAKER_05 25:19

Which two? Oh, a devils and angels cocktail.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah, and and and how that ties into like the outcomes of like the stories.

Universal Arcs And The Wounded Healer

SPEAKER_05 25:27

For listeners, sorry, for listeners, I will define that a little bit, and I don't want to encroach on his brand or his lingo, but we do, and we didn't really get into the nitty-gritty last week, but there are all kinds of chemicals that happen when we partake in story, whether it's around the campfire or in a theater or at the ballet. And um most of them are the euphoric brain chemicals, right? If you're really invested, and maybe even there's a cliffhanger that not only provokes or intrigues, but hooks you or addicts you. That's oxytocin. And then there's epinephrine, and there's dopamine, yeah, dopamine, endorphins, and they all are. I have the list if we want to go over them one by one, but they all collectively create trust, suggestibility, trust in the storyteller, but also those around the campfire, the tribe. And so there's a suggestibility, and that's why when we impart the thematic content through the resolution of the conflict, we do walk away with something redemptive, uh, because we're in that space. And then I think what's the laughter one?

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Just endorphins.

SPEAKER_05 26:38

Yeah, endorphins. Like that is a heightened state of creativity. They're all like alertness, heightened memory for details, heightened creativity. And so uh the way I put it is simply put, when you walk out of a theater, you just feel more alive. And they call certain stories life-affirming. That is beneficial to the you know, survival of the species, but also the propagation of the tribe. It's contributes to altruism. And Virginia, you've mentioned the platonic values, everything that's not survival-based, equanimity, justice, beauty, aesthetics, like all these higher, loftier things that I think speak to human potential and capacity. Those are the chemical outcomes. So let's call that the angel's cocktail. And then by contrast, the devil's cocktail was cortisol and adrenaline. So, in those films that may not have it sounds very elitist, but that redemptive content or may not have much to say, or some would say literary value or artistic integrity, meaning merit. These are all very judgmental terms. But if it's just about the bank heist and really nothing is being imparted about the human condition, you could be just feeding an addiction to cortisol and adrenaline within the individual, and then on the macro scale, an addiction to violence, or at the very least, a normalization of violence, right? And um, and then a tolerance for it.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Yeah, perpetuating what you call a cultural addiction, right? And and it turns out to be uh you don't use the word vapid, I do, but that's what the devil is.

SPEAKER_05 28:13

I use it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Well, in these pages, uh it's just that you you you you mentioned that guy in the angels and the devil's cocktail, and then you liken it to the commercial, right? If they're commercial, you want to peep keep people addicted to the movies and the hype because then they'll buy more.

SPEAKER_05 28:35

It is frowned upon to be a moralist in most circles. Artistic integrity is eroded by moralism. You're supposed to show all sides of the coin and not backseat drive, not be didactic, because that's propaganda, right? So there's an irony here. But I think we know titillation when we see it. I think we know gratuitous, right? Nudity violence, you fill in the blank when we see it. Is it germane to the plot, or is it just for box office proceeds? And so it is in the eye of the beholder. But I make a case that you know sometimes you show the yin with the yong, and there would be no conflict if you didn't show some violence or some darkness. I use Pan's Labyrinth as an example. It ran too dark for a lot of people's tastes. But all those violent images of the Spanish Civil War were necessary for the kingdom that Ophelia inherits to pay off, if that makes sense. So, do you guys feel like most people know when it's gratuitous or if it's strictly there for titillation for the almighty dollar versus when it serves the thematic content, if that makes sense?

SPEAKER_02 29:48

I think the average movie going public doesn't think about that at all.

SPEAKER_05 29:52

Right, right, right. And therein lies a problem, the problem. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

I think I think they they know whether that they think about whether the movie has engaged them, in interested them, grabbed them, held them, whether from deep emotional content or whether from seat of the edge thrills content, right?

SPEAKER_05 30:17

I think I think Do you think though there's cultural value to people will call it catharsis? They'll say, Oh, I watched Bruce Willis kill a bunch of people, it was so cathartic. Uh Guillermo del Toro is one of my favorite filmmakers. And he will say, along with a lot of horror um auteurs, that you are embracing the psyche, that you know, the shadow side of the human psyche by giving us that catharsis, by bringing horror to life, or you know, literally monsters to life, Guillermo del Toro would say, I'm providing catharsis. I don't so much relate to that, but I can't argue with it. You know, if I was that type of person who had some demons under my rug that I wasn't looking at, it it might serve a purpose. Do you feel like there's value to just people getting their aggressions out or you know, having some kind of catharsis short of feeding that addiction? The cortisol and adrenaline?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

That's a really good question. Uh, there's a lot of research that that's conflicting, you know, on whether or not violent films, violent video games, violent engagement leads to violent behavior. And, you know, there's there's arguments on both sides of that fence. Um I you know, I I can I guess I can only like we all can only look at our lives ultimately through our lens as much as we try to clean it off, you know, as much as we try to clear the fog off to look at things. Um you know, I I guess I feel that there's um, and this is just my personal perspective, there's already so much of humanity's uh deep demonic shadow that's uh being demonstrated in the world that that we can see before our eyes every day on the news or social media or whatever we're gonna look at it. So um, you know, for it to be um in film or theater, um which I think uh has a little bit of a different collective cathartic experience, theater than film, um I I think it has to be really skillfully done to me to make it a redemptive work of art in terms of in terms of taking us all to the deepest, darkest place for for that catharsis.

SPEAKER_05 32:49

Yeah, I think it's tricky. And you know, I I think Aristotle even talked about that function of catharsis, and uh again, all the horror auteurs that I've listened to will say there is a release of a complex somehow because it's all unexamined. But yeah, I think it's a really tough thing to pull off. And I hope nobody gets me wrong. I'm not about puppies and daisies and rainbows. My work is dark, and it always has been. I have a very dark aesthetic and I have dark outcomes. And um, but I did notice, I think all of us authors would relate, you write the kind of endings you need in your life, and that's well, that's what you're thinking about wiping the lens. Like there's almost no way around it. I remember when I always wrote tragic endings because I could afford it, or melancholy, right? All those words like bittersweet, melancholy, noir, very French, very ambivalent, ambiguous, ambivalent endings. But then suddenly, when I needed hope, I started writing happy endings. I was like, what the fuck was that?

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Well, look, I I want to I want to comment on that because um I'm a huge Stephen King fan. Um, and that's and if anybody follows me on social media will know that, and we share the same birthday. So just ironic, my favorite author and I have the same birthday. Um, but I've I've always been enthralled with with Stephen King's work. Um, and you know, uh on screen, it's definitely more for the thrill factor. If you've actually sat down and read his books before you've seen them on the silver screen, the ones that have gone there. Um, there's a huge difference in them.

SPEAKER_05 34:28

They're more psychologic, intricate psychologically.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

They are. They're more of a psychological thriller than actual books. I mean, there's definitely some grit and in um like under the dome that became a series. I'll just use that one for example. Um, it went very sci-fi on TV where the book is very gritty. I mean, there's literally um rape in there, there's it's it's pretty dark. Um, and it's all just, you know, if basically the worst of, you know, if something could happen in a town could happen to where it goes very dystopian, you know, here's it and for me, so to go more to it, and this is and I've realized this more as I've gone, you know, through my clinical studies and have gone into um, you know, sitting with with people in a clinical setting, is what has always drawn me to Stephen King is because it does for me put in front that, you know, what is the dark, you know, shadow side of of humanity, right? Like what is primal man? We'll just basically say that just basic human lizard brain instinct of what we could do. And so for me, it's always brought that curiosity of, well, why does that happen? And so I think it really for me, when I think about um, and I love horror movies, I'm not gonna deny that. Um, I I think it depends on the person, like where they're at. So that's why I say in a clinical saying, I think of it's where that person is in their life's journey and how they're gonna perceive through their lens. And so going back to what Andre said, which is why I think there's that debate between, you know, do these horror movies, these violent games and stuff, do they affect people? Well, if somebody's not grounded and isn't in a good lens, is it gonna influence them in an adverse way? Probably. If somebody's grounded and is going in with more of a curiosity and is questioning and open to turning that kaleidoscope, as I always say, and and trying to perceive from multiple viewpoints of understanding, it probably won't affect them as adversely. So I think that has a lot to do with, I think when someone walks. And I think the same thing's when like something's really like, you know, let's just go with that, you know, joyous, euphoric feeling. Somebody who's not in that frame of mind goes and sees a happy movie where's or supposed to be like a rom-com, right? Are they gonna walk out with that same good good feeling as somebody who is in that Twitter painted, you know?

Angel’s Cocktail Versus Devil’s Cocktail

SPEAKER_05 36:59

If I if I could jump in though, I mean I'm I'm gonna make the case that intention transcends. So I always go back to inspiration, but I think the intention does transcend at some point. I I agree with you a hundred percent, but you're also kind of solidifying something for me. The idea, even in the hero's journey of facing off with the monster, right? Whether it's uh uh I'm gonna use Beowulf as an example, that's a shadow side of humanity that you got to face your demons to conquer them, right? And I think that would be the argument for these kind of uh for horror, is there's a shadow side to yes, our basis instincts, things we don't want to face in the human condition or ourselves, and you have to confront them to conquer them. So I think um, you know, the Odyssey, the Cyclops, like all behemoths, and maybe even uh some of Guillermo del Toro's monsters, it is the archetype of facing off with a psyche because even a complex that is resolved through catharsis is something unexamined that's not being looked at. So then where does that lapse into glorifying violence is a word you hear a lot, right? Or maybe normalizing violence or habituating people to violence. To me, it is always going to go back to the intention. So I have had 20 years, trust me, of students that will say, Oh, I went into gaming, and it's not just because it's the only job I could get, even though I want to be in feature animation. I went into game, you know, they won't say that, but they go into gaming and then they have to rationalize it. So I've literally had 20 years of my students saying, Oh, no, no, no, it doesn't habituate people to violence just because you're beheading zombies for hours on end. Um, it actually is good for dexterity. You know, studies have proven study, studies have proven surgeons are much more dexterous if they've played video games, like, come on. So there's a lot of you know rationalization of the way things are, but you got to trust the studies, right? Even like the addictive. I love that there's a lawsuit right now, by the way. Are you guys aware of the test companies? Yeah, I love that there's a lawsuit. Every other product, if you if it's known to be addictive and you don't put the warning labels, or you continue to rather than changing the formula, you continue proffering it, you're liable. So I love that the studies are now showing that young people are easily addicted uh to social media and scrolling and engagement and likes, and they've been propagating it, knowing full well what the studies show. Sorry, am I preaching?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

No, it's true.

SPEAKER_05 39:34

There's no hiding anymore.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Well, yeah, and I think that goes back to what you're just saying, you know, like like the cities. I mean, um, you know, with a lot of the young people, because everything's so it's instant gratification, right? And they're and they're getting go, it's like, you know, and and and going back to the whole devil's and angels cocktail, that so here here's an interesting thing. Like the angels cocktail is supposed to make you feel good, right? That's the the purpose of it. But we're seeing with social media with the younger generation, because they are getting that dopamine fix, that oxytocin, the endorphins kicking in, that they're getting this you know, high, and then when all of a sudden they're not instantly getting that gratification, their patience goes down, their self-worth goes down, and so we start seeing the adverse effects.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Well, talk about intention. Look at the intention of the social media company, right? Yeah, to addict the user. And so when we so looking at the narrative of what is the story that the social media company is companies are telling, but what's the what's the what's the what's their want? Let's take care of it and the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:44

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Yeah, so let's let's break down these chemicals since we've been dancing around them a little bit more. Um, so let's talk about the chemical story. Uh so dopamine, let's just go there. So that's our intrigue and the anticipation. So in the chapter, Nick, you describe dopamine as the chemical tied to anticipation, focus, motivation, essentially what hooks us into a story. So I want you to talk a little bit about that and then we'll get to it.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

Well, I actually I have it, I have them highlighted. So dopamine, and that is, I think, what we're talking about with this addiction, right? You burn out synapses if the fix needs to be higher and higher each time, you know, so it can have pluses and minuses. The reward, isn't that the reward system, or is that oxytocin? No, it is it's dopamine.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah, it's part of it. Activates your brain's reward system.

SPEAKER_05 41:31

Yeah, yeah. So that's the danger of the addictive quality of you know, TikTok, for example, is like you say, you need more and more to sustain that high. So, but anyway, I have written down in the chapter, it heightens awareness, you know, at its best, heightens awareness and a memory for details later, and it increases focus, alertness, motivation, and inspiration. So I know, like I said, when I walk out of a movie and I just feel more alive, it's because I'm high on dopamine. Um, I don't have much to say about it, but it is the cliffhanger, right? Everybody, you know, has it down to a science, especially streaming content. How do you make sure they'll come back for the next installment? Or in a really good book series, how do you make sure they'll buy the next book? You hook them with that cliffhanger.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Suspense.

SPEAKER_05 42:23

Yeah. I mean, is there much to say about dopamine?

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Well, you know, and here here's the thing with dopamine too is um a lot of people think like, you know, yeah, it does do that. It does hook us, right? It does bring us in because it it adds that layer of what's gonna happen next to you're like hanging on, you know, to the seat of your pants, right? To to see what happens. But I think dopamine, I mean, if you think about it, like if you're creating something, you know, you're sitting down like the artist who's starting to sketch out or um lay out what it is they're gonna paint, dopamine kicks in as well. So there is where it can play into a contentment as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Well, sex drugs and rock and roll. You know how they used to say, you know, those are the the three focus things that they always said, well, I think it's your prefrontal cortex, I don't remember, I didn't memorize it. It downloads those experiences, and then our bodies are made where we want more of it and more of it. And so that that's that addiction. So it activates your dopamine and then your brain wants to return to it. So, like in a singing lesson, if a student hits a really great note and I want them to really be able to manage that note again and again, exactly that way. We stop and we talk about how you got to get excited so that your body will want to return to that. Don't you like, oh, I'm so good, and just be like, oh, I do that at home all the time. No, you you gotta get excited so your brain goes, Oh, oh, she likes this. I'm gonna return to this exact balance of the singing. So it's the same thing with sex, drugs, and rocks, rock and roll. Your brain wants to return to it. So the dopamine is that addiction that you get on TikTok, and it is the addiction that you get because your brain wants to go back to the thing that makes you feel so good. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

I just want to jump in for one second, and the problem we're having now is that social media and the addiction to social media is causing um is causing dopamine exhaustion. It's it's it's the fact that that the brain just keeps creating these mini hits of dopamine over and over and over, and the constant digital stimulation, right? Burns out your your stores of dopamine. So then you end up being exhausted, you can't focus moody, right? And and your brain chemistry then is off because your normal dopamine reward system is is um used up or imbalanced or um do you think we're tapped out?

SPEAKER_05 45:01

Let's assume you know they say technology increases exponentially, and I think we've all seen it. Um let's say technology's not going anywhere, social media is not, I mean, I think we're regulating on an as-needed basis, or we're trying, right? But it's the genie's out of the bottle. So let's say we're not going back. Will we adapt? Will our brain chemistry adapt to the overstimulation, the image saturation, all the things we're talking about? Like I kind of hinted at earlier, it's not part of the human condition yet to be able to see all those. We used to have to open a site an encyclopedia to see some animal, do you know what I mean, in the jungles in Far East Asia? And now we just can see it in the background if an influencer is on the top of a mountain in the Himalayas, you know, like we have access to everything now. And I'm not even talking about porn yet, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:51

So if we have access to all of it, will we adapt?

SPEAKER_00 45:55

I I think I think our brains will. I think, you know, and I think we're starting to see that in the younger generations who have grown up always having technology, that there is definitely a difference with the way their synapses are um wired. Um, you know, that they're not because you know, we have a lot of synapses, but and and we prune them too. But I think that theirs are shorter because they're because they're used to so much stuff coming instantly. It's not like where we had, like you said, we had to go back and research and we could just go jump on Google or go on to Chat GPT and go like, hey, tell me about this and get the information we had to and we had to remember, and that's that's the other thing too with dopamine, is it also is besides just hookiness, it's part of our what helps us with memory.

SPEAKER_05 46:42

Um right. That's why I want to get back to the positive, yeah, you know, because that's kind of in the book the case that I'm making is like, yes, we're always adapting. I think we need to have some adults in the room, right, that are um applying tough love and regulating what our children are exposed to, make sure they still have executive function and that they're not burned out or that they're not overstimulated or exhausted, as Andrea put it. You know, we're always regulating that. But let's say at its best, it's almost like being in love. That's how I put it. When you are in that theater, and I'm sorry, I keep using that as an example in the cinema, and you're in there, hook, line, and sinker. So you're suggestible and you can receive the redemptive content. It is a state that's almost like being in love, right? And that is we always take risks in life, right? Breakups. If you break up, if you break down the chemistry behind love, it it takes the romance out of it, but it's very chemical. And so if you're addictive and you're suddenly abandoned and somebody dumps you, man, that's hard to come back from. So I think there's all, but that's life, right? The risk and then the price. So, but at its best, I would say that state of being in love does open you up. And I list the platonic values to altruism, appreciation, gratitude, equanimity, and personal liberty. So, do you know? Yes, there's always a downside, and um what maybe it's about um moderation, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

I don't I think that's really like an in it's the interesting marriage between dopamine and oxytocin, right? That that heavy love connection, deep um feeling bonding hormone, right?

Dopamine, Oxytocin, And Memory

SPEAKER_05 48:40

You know, and you're right, I did lapse into the outcomes of oxytocin. Oops.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Yeah, that's okay. I mean, I just I think that the I think the two, um, like you said in in and you're writing about the angel's cocktail, the two are are are very are are are are served up in the same martini, right? Right.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Well, ultimately, I mean you end the chapter with epigenetics. And so as you guys are talking about, well, will our brains adapt to this shortened, you know, this short attention span, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Uh, how are we gonna adapt? And now we have AI, and so end the chapter with wow, you guys, we can pass shit on to a baby in the womb if we can get it together right now. The next generation can be born with these things. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 49:35

That's kind of what I meant. Well, I say get our hands in the clay, right? But I a moment ago just said, let's be adults in the room and let's regulate, you know. I do think if people had a better understanding, which is why I wrote my book, you know, have a bigger understanding of intergenerational trauma, what can be done about it, have a better understanding of the power of epigenetics. It is almost in you know, unfathomable the potential of epigenetics if we could just grasp it. Right now, they really focus on chemical factors and lifestyle factors. How about thoughts and feelings? How about thought forms and paradigms?

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Well, it's like it's like you're writing about in in in this chapter where you say your brain doesn't know whether what you're imagining is actually in front of you or if you're imagining it, right?

SPEAKER_05 50:37

Right. Right. Well, and again, this is empirical, by the way. You know, your body will produce a burn under hypnosis with the suggestion of a burn. People walk on hot coals all the time, you know. And Abraham Hicks would say, you know, even with the cottage industry that is dieting, she's like, way more important than what you're putting in your body is what you believe about what you're putting in your body. So again, I don't think it was in this chapter, but in the story and belief chapter, I tell a lot of stories about doctors, and this is empirical, but it's of course their own um papers and theses. They will say, Yeah, I had beginner's luck because I didn't know any better with my patients, you know, and they solved all kinds of like I think some of more funguses and like incurable diseases in their patients because they hadn't seen too much. And once they saw too many statistics, they lost their alchemy. And so there's all kinds of examples of I guess it's mind over matter that sounds a little reductive, but that's how we're wired. The history of medicine is the history of the placebo effect, period.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Well, and I think that goes, I'm gonna just bring that right back to and I looking at dopamine in itself, that's what it is. It's it's that part that allows us in the first place to have movement engagement. So it it's what helps us have that curiosity. Um, and so that's why we want to know more and we progress forward because you know it doesn't create the meaning, but I think it definitely is what gives that stimulus to us, you know, to want to be fulfilled in some way. Or or like you're saying, like with the doctors, you know, they didn't know, and but they're like, but this is working, so there's gotta be more to this, you know, type thing. So it it it makes them keep doing what's what's beneficial. Um and and I think that's that's the big thing for us, you know. So yeah, it is part of our pleasure pleasure pleasure principle, um, which you know brings in the oxytocin, and that's when we move into that, because that gives us the empathy, the trust, the bonding, allows us to be vulnerable, to be able to relate to people.

SPEAKER_05 52:53

Yeah, I think the umbrella, even you know, bringing endorphins into the equation, I think the umbrella is that it's only heightened emotions that get mapped on our worldviews. Everything else just kind of falls away. And that speaks to epigenetics as well. How are we augmenting our database of innate responses? You know, we're given a lot of instincts, but we're kind of because I think somebody mentioned the very sophisticated prefrontal cortex, we can actually take new novel responses to stimuli that maybe no human has ever encountered and add to that database in real time, right, during our lifetimes. And then the suggestibility. We're probably the only ones that can vicariously internalize values or morals into our worldview or value system by you name it, gossip, propaganda, uh, um, the narratives that society propagates, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:53

I don't know if we're all over the place, but I feel like uh what I was trying to say is all these chemicals we're talking about are inherent in storytelling. And so it's just another illustration of the fact that story is the biggest means by which we transform. I want to quickly give an example because I just saw the Bruce, um, what's his name? Uh Bruce Springsteen video last night. Have you guys seen that yet? Um yeah, I I'm a fan. I think he's amazing. You know, I never never bought an album, but of course I I respect him and his career and what he's always stood for, and uh I like him as a musician. The song is a little pedantic and it's a little literal, but he does, you know, there's a great video if you Google it about Minneapolis and what's happening. And again, it's not high art because it's so narrative. I'm contradicting my entire book, but it's not concept, it's not conceptual, it's very slice of lifey and very preachy, preachy and narrative and blah blah. But it's to me, I was like, oh my god, so many of us have our hands in the air and we don't know what we can do. Is it really going to pay off to write a letter to my you know, my senator or my congressperson? And we feel like we don't know what we can do. That video has shot to number one globally. So even for people that just hear a little news story about what's going on in the US and have a theoretical understanding of it, but aren't living it, they get it. And so I just had that thought like that's going to be more powerful than anything in this ongoing narrative. Art. You know, nobody else knows what the F they can do. But then when people all over the world are downloading that and making it number one, at least the awareness is heightened about this issue. You know the issue I'm talking about, right? Like fascism.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Um sorry. I was spelling it. I was spelling it.

SPEAKER_05 55:58

Okay, right, right. In case we didn't beat you over the head, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Well, and I think it goes back to the fact that you know, um when people and they may not understand what's drawing them to I haven't seen it yet either, Nick, but um, what's drawing them to go see you know this this film that's out by um Bruce, you know, the boss is right, the bonding is happening because they're they're under there there's something in internally happening, even if they can't consciously put words to it, that they're like, Oh, wait, I recognize things in here.

SPEAKER_05 56:33

I'm under it's a music video, it's just a music video, but I mean it spells it out. There's no question, even if you weren't watching the news and you know, you were in some corner, some jungle. Again, I want to sound racist. If you were high on a mountaintop and you were living a the life of a hermit, and then you saw this video, you would definitely get it. And you'd think, oh, that's not good.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Yeah, but music moves us, right? Because music is a way of and another way of sharing stories, sharing commonality.

SPEAKER_05 57:05

Yeah, I just thought that that said a lot to me that nobody knows what they can do, and we're all feeling futile and watching it happen, right? And they say, um, I don't know, like, what's the definition of being on the wrong side of history? And uh a great meme I saw said, What would you have done you know during the rise of fascism or in the 1930s in Europe? You're doing it now.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 57:36

Anyway, so but I thought, wow, it's number one globally. That says something.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Well, and it goes back, you know, just even what you just put out there. It's why stories are so important in our lives, right? Because it's supposed to help as it's been brought up. And I can't remember if it was Renee or Andre, or maybe both of you guys said about holding up the mirror, how you bring that up. You know, again, it's reflecting back to us what is happening. And and on and you know, taking out the conscious level on a primal level. So, you know, that's basically our nervous system and our primal brain. We can understand that through the different hormones that go through our body and how our nervous system is reacting.

SPEAKER_05 58:17

Yeah, and the video bypasses again that mechanism where if somebody's trying to persuade you, you just dig your heels in more and you know, rely on your confirmation bias and your identity politics. And it's as actually an anthropological principle that um it's like the red dress syndrome. Oops, I voted for Trump. That was a mistake, but you know what? I'm gonna dig my heels in more just to rationalize and prove to myself I didn't do the wrong thing in the first place. So you bypass all that pride and ego and I guess mind dominance, right? When it's emotional. And I do think the video is very narrative and it spells it out. It's not strictly visceral, but it all works together. It's art, put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

And so um, yeah, people can argue with art, I guess, but you can argue with it, but I think that's what you know. But all art is story, and it's and that's why I think it is in that in that in that very basic form where it passes cognition.

SPEAKER_05 59:15

Yep, there you go. Yeah, that's what I was kind of getting at. Yeah, circumvent that brain, that fucking brain, man.

Catharsis, Horror, And Intention

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Likes to hold us up. All right, so let's let's we didn't really get into um endorphins, but our doorphins are definitely our release. That's it's releasing the energy and getting us to do stuff. But let's look at cortisol and adrenaline because that is our fear and survival. Um, hormones that like to kick in those chemicals that are tied to fear, threat. It's our fight, flight responses that we have. So I want to understand um with storytelling. No, we touched on it a little bit, how that crosses into maybe conditioning us more than putting it into a catharsis framework.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:07

Well, I guess I always go first, but I hope you guys jump in. Again, I I just feel like the out the intention transcends. And so we've pointed out, well, you can't have the redemptive content or you know, thematic content that results from the conflict resolution without showing right the violence or shadow side of humanity, or you know, so but then hmm, is it in the eye of the beholder when it starts to border on titillation for the almighty dollar or gratuitous you know, content for the almighty dollar or some other out? I don't think anyone's out to habituate people to violence just as an end in itself. It's isn't it usually for the almighty dollar or for persuasion or power in some way?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:55

Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:55

Propaganda political campaigning uses fear-mongering a lot, and that uh, you know, but that's for posturing in some way. But anyway, I think we know it when we see it, and I think the intention transcends, but there is some gray area, probably.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

I sometimes wonder if it does help propagate that us versus them mentality in some cases, though.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:17

If it's well, in the book, I use the example of like you know, the Cold War. We had several decades of Russians as bad guys, and then once that was no longer okay, we went to aliens. But and that comes and goes, right? In the 50s, that was a big one. But I do like that better because it's it's still like otherizing, and it's still us against them, which is awesome for the tribe or the species. But you know, we live in a huge universe and we might learn we have more neighbors, so I don't like that it's kind of perpetuating the tribal instincts of other rising, but I think it's better than like the Russians.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:58

I don't know. What do you guys think? We need our bad guys, we need our villains.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

I think it's so interesting living in these times. Um, because when I think about that sort of the the the cortisol um stress adrenaline response in in watching a film, right? A thriller, like going to see um uh what was the Tom Cruise one about the jet airplanes? I forget the name of that was, um, you know, where he was flying Top Gun or Oh, Top Gun, yeah. There was yeah, yeah, you know, right. The adrenaline and and the the cortisol, you know, is he gonna crash? Is he not? And you know, that kind of thing. Um but then I look at what's going on and how through what's gone on in Minneapolis or or through what's been going on in the political zeitgeist for the past year or the past two years or the past six years or the past ten years, I mean I feel like there's um there are people who are living in culture in their real life being trapped in the cortisol adrenaline fear um fear cycle just from watching the news from watching what's going on in politics.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:23

I absolutely I I limit my intake, it seems lackadaisical and it seems like I'm part of the problem and not the solution, but I've been through a lot the past couple years, and so again, what you put your attention on grows. So I'm selective and I try to focus on solutions and not beating the drum of the grievance or the problem. Nobody knows what to do right now. But yeah, I wanted to chime in on that a little bit too, though, because um I do you remember the term I think it was in the tripartite state that was um was that Plato or Socrates? That tripartite state idea, the spirited element. I think it was Plato. I might be wrong. He was one of those guys. Um, but the idea is, you know, we all have our gifts and we all should contribute them, and you know, a society works best when we all know our place. And so it's a little elitist, like, oh, you have a ruling class. Uh I mean, we've seen the downside of democracy for sure. You should probably need a license to vote, or you know, we've seen the downside of democracy, but it's too elitist for some. But the idea is there's something called the spirited element. Those that want glory, they want their parents to be proud of them. They want to protect the tribe back home by going off to war. We need those guys that want to shoot them up. Maybe not video games, you know what I mean? But we need our protectors, we need our warriors. But I feel like there's something going on where the Western version of that is off base. There's plenty of tribal or indigenous cultures that have a different definition of what it is to be a warrior, if that makes sense. Um, is there some fucked up Western European version of masculinity, you know, the warrior archetype that needs to be revisited? Am I making any sense to you guys?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:11

Wow, that's that's a whole that's that's a whole episode.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:15

But isn't that what isn't that what we're talking about? We're training our men specifically to conflate violence. I mean, just look at ice. What the hell? What how were they raised and what is wrong in that recipe? It's what we're talking about. A lifetime of taking in stories that glorify violence, not just um protecting the family unit or you know, I I fucking love America. I love our constitution. We it's a luxury that we get to have high ideals, but there is some indigenous tribal version of what it is to be a warrior that is uh you know that has been left in the dust in my mind.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

I got I gotta drop this in there, which it goes goes along with it. And and I don't know how to strain this soup, but I've never heard that. But um the whole the whole anti-feminist, it's it's it's the fault of of of feminism and women in the workplace and um and uh and and liberal ideas that men now don't know how to be men, and that there's this whole incel backlash. So that's an intrinsic part of what's going on in the zeitgeist right now. And so how do we how how do we strain that soup?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:45

Let me let me make sure I understand because you and I have, you know, we've touched on that in this podcast quite a bit. But it sounds a little bit like um I call it the manosphere. So that includes the incels. And yeah, you know, and I've defended men a little bit and said, you know, just like women have to be all things to all people all the time, and the job never ends, you know, men are expected to be sensitive now and still be a warrior and a protector. So nobody's off the hook, you know, we're always redefined, we're always having identity crises. And I think the um the war between the sexes is silly. Let's just all be better humans. But that said, obviously patriarchy is on its way out. But it sounds a little bit like you're saying maybe small-minded people are so threatened by feminism over the past what 40, 50, 60 years that that's why they're digging their heels in and being hypermasculine is I'm saying, I'm saying it's it's it's it's one ingredient.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:44

Yeah, it's one ingredient in the soup.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:47

Right. And then when you have, you know, like Kamala, for example. Oh no, nope, we're not ready. Nope, we're gonna that pendulum's gonna swing way back. You're you're absolutely right. It's it's like we said, I think a couple weeks ago, they're like dinosaurs trying to preserve the Cretaceous.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:08

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

I was gonna say it seems like it's a big narrative. Sorry. It is, and well, and it seems like we we get hyper focused on one one viewpoint or the other, depending on what you know is an alignment for us individually, right? And it's like I feel like sometimes we forget objectivity and subjectivity live together and are bridged by um the commonality of responsibility and accountability. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:37

Responsibility and accountability.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:40

What well go ahead. I have the thought, I don't know if this is related, but I had the thought it's why we all need to keep telling these stories because we're not really all going to be able to turn that kaleidoscope to use your analogy, right? Or step outside of our, you know, wipe our lens to use Andrea's. You know, we're not all fully capable of seeing all sides of an issue and being judicious. But isn't that why we need to keep having the conversations?

Media, Algorithms, And Addiction

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

Yeah. And that's what you you also wrote that in towards the end of the chapter about the point of trying to reach our true capacity and what you always say, like um the evolution, where we need to propel ourselves to the full our full potential. So in order to reach our full potential, whether everyone agrees or not, um that there should be immigrants in the US, that's not the point. The point is civility, the point is having being able to have a discourse and finding our common ground. And it doesn't have to be um where we're at right now, which is we're all caught in that cycle, whatever you will, the cycle of anger and you know, not being seen and not being heard and and defending our accidental red dress choice. And everybody's just caught privilege, privilege. Nobody's thinking about the outcome. Like, wait, don't we want to have civility? Don't we want to have civil discourse? And don't we want to be united ultimately? So every you know, I I guess we are repeating our bullshit because you know there's genocides going on way back when, and still these things are still happening.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:16

You know, last I think one of the times you came on, you used the example of you know family sitting at a dinner table and there's a conflict. It is about agreeing to what is the desired outcome here, right? Do what yeah, what's the goal, what's the desired outcome? But I will say we are repeating cycles and we're not taking opportunities for growth. But on a really good day, I think we can all see the fact that we're not silencing and erasing, and that that's not, you know, we can't even say politically correct anymore, but it's not woke. It's not woke to erase indigenous people, the LGBTQ community. It's not okay to silence and erase. I mean, that is progress in my own lifetime. I've seen major progress, but we are seeing the backlash. And if you put we're kind of talking in real general terms here, but if you take that resistance, call it the manosphere, call it the incels, call it the conspiracy theorists, if you put the whole MAGA community as over 50% of Americans, it's almost like they're so terrified there is a backlash, but it's creating a conflict that we can look at. You I'll I'll uh shout out to Diane, our friend Diane. Uh, she once said, Well, I didn't mean to lose my temper, but we had to have something to address. Right? Something like, and it wasn't between the two of us. She just said, in this situation, you know, on a better day, I wouldn't have lost it. But now there's something on the table to address. So I feel like it goes back to, you know, all strife signals change and all conflict signals resolution. It's it's a really tough moment. But I'm hopeful, and I'm gonna say one more thing because I I love when you know life informs these conversations in real time. So maybe, Renee, like the idea is if we have an outcome, whether it's utopian or completely fantastical and out of reach, better to aspire than to kind of, I don't know, just live in the muck in the mire and keep telling the same story. So uh I I kind of have a love-hate relationship with aspirational storytelling. So, like that Hollywood, that Netflix Hollywood thing that told a beautiful story about what if there was no racism in Hollywood? What if the Oscar went to, you know, the Asian actress rather than somebody in drag playing an Asian? And it was all like, what if Rock Hudson got to be himself? And there's a lot of responsibility in that, but I actually love it now because I've seen heated rivalry. Have any of you watched that? Yet again, it's kind of like the um Bruce uh Springsteen thing, it's literally the top, top watched streaming content ever, and people are rewatching it literally three times, and it's a big, big I think you used the word cultural zeitgeist a minute ago. It's a big moment, and so it's aspirational LGBTQ storytelling, where yeah, I remember the first time I saw a movie where nobody died of AIDS, nobody was a tragic figure, everybody was rooting for the love story, right? Instead of cringing, or and it's very clear to people in the community like that is literally the first time we weren't tragic characters, and um, anyway, so this particular one is like um every and a psychology. I'm gonna share the article with you, Virginia, but she broke it down and said, Yeah, there must be some kind of oxytocin fix, because every time you think things are gonna go south and the same old forces are gonna be at work, it's the opposite. So so then when they're busted, okay, they're on rival teams, yet they love each other, and so they're supposed to be hating each other in the media, but they're fucking privately, right? But then they fall in love, and oops, uh, the the parent sees them together in a you know, and so suddenly oh, they're outed with with and it's set in the 90s, I think. And then you think it's gonna go south, but it's a beautiful scene where the mother says, I'm sorry, I made you feel that you couldn't be yourself. You know, he apologizes for try, I tried, I tried, you know, and she's like, sweetheart, don't. And it's like, oh, that never would have happened in the 90s, but wow, really aspirational. And those are the models we need to be seeing more and more. Does that make sense a little bit? Every expectation is dashed. Oh, and then like they can't come out because their hockey career would go to hell in a handbasket, and they've got all kinds of endorsements, and that's the moneymaker for the entire family. Um, and yet the dude decides to call his partner down. Everybody else, they won. I forget you know what level in the league, but they won a game. All the partners are coming down and hugging on the ice, and the dude's looking up and he's in a closeted relationship, and he says, Fuck it. And he waves them down and they make out in the middle, you know, and they show all the reactions around the world of people watching it on TV. It's it's like, ah, that would never happen. But what a imagine being a kid that's not out, that's tortured and seeing that example.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:28

Yeah, but that's the reverse, right? So the storytelling that we always talk about from the you know, beginning, the exposition and then the conflict, and then the day the rising action, then whatever the denomination. So here they are, they're flipping it around. They're like not taking it, they're not upping the stakes, they're not doing the third act tragedy or whatever. They're not, they're showing the opposite, they're flipping it. So it's a wonderful, brand new way of storytelling, and it might be aspirational in Pollyanna, but it's going to have a place in society, and that's one of the goals of storytelling, right? And we were just talking about when you said the Diane thing that well, now we have something to address. We're talking about conflict resolution, all of life is storytelling. And what is storytelling? It's conflict resolution. And so when there's a conflict, Michael Michael Mead, he's like a mythologist. Andre, you know him. Yeah, when when this all started going down with um the current administration, he talks about a seed splitting. And he goes into how you know this conflict, the seed splitting, and then growing, and then growth, and then, you know, the solving, the resolution of a problem. And so now we have something on the table, everyone's fighting, but not to be Pollyanna or aspirational, but as you just said, Nick, there is hope that now that it's you know all getting spewed out, that we might be able to pick up the pieces and build something that uh that that has redemption and that resolves all of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:01

Uh from the ashes, I've said, you know, like you gotta die to yourself to be reborn individually. That's the Christ archetype. You gotta die to be reborn. It is globally, it's scary. You know, if we survive and you know, and there's no nuclear war, we're gonna be great.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:22

So and climate change, you know, it's hard to see the outcome, but I do think right now it's not just the United States. I think um authoritarianism is taking hold everywhere. There's a belief that people can't govern themselves, that democracy is on its way out, and then you see uprisings, even the Arab Spring, all the way through what's happening in Iran right now. Uh, I think there is a cutting-edge philosophy. The world is a smaller place than ever, and we are ushering out a lot of patriarchy, but also a lot of disempowering narratives about humanity. You know, oppressive governments that I won't go on and on, but take rights away from entire subcultures and populations of people, that doesn't fly anymore. So, right, it seems way far off, but I love the uprisings all over right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:13

It's interesting. I I don't know if you follow Heather Cox Richardson, but she has, you know, as a historian. And one of the things she's been saying recently is it's bad, but it's going to get worse. It's bad, but it's going to get worse before the before the we turn the page on the chapter, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:31

Yeah, that sounded depressing. Is that supposed to be inspirational?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:34

Well, you know, because she's talking about the overreach of the federal government and and what their attempts are. And, you know, going back to not to hammer on a a point, but going back to the idea of of patriarchy, um, you know, when Renee Good was shot, and then he, you know, kills her and then calls her a fucking bitch as as her dead body drives away in a car. And then there are videos that come out of ice um saying to uh to other women um, well, didn't you learn from from oh shit, really? Yeah, and then then um then there was also another one um where uh um where the there've been commentators uh from the right coming out and saying, Oh, it's really disturbing how all these um white liberal wine moms are now going out and becoming part of these um you know um ice tracking community organizations, and that these white liberal wine moms are are you know really going too far. And it's so it's the um the justification of you know the violence you know against women and and violence against you know Renee Good as a as a gay woman as being you know infuriating to the the enemy, she's the enemy, yeah, to the to the ice agent who shot her in the face.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:13

I mean oh look, I'm sorry, I gotta jump in. I feel like chicken a little. You know, the sky is falling. I wrote my book what five, six years ago now, and so I my hands are a little in the air, and I am a little um defeatist about this because, like, when you've spent your whole life trying to get people to look beyond the end of their nose, and now, yeah, I we all love it when an ex-MAGA comes out and says, Oops, I didn't know what I was voting for. We all love that, but I do feel like, okay, well, I tried and here we are.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Art As Mirror And Cultural Shift

SPEAKER_05 1:20:52

I tried my damnedest my entire life, and here we are. But did anyone see SNL last night? It's a hysterical skit about you know, a family, and you can just guess the kids are um Gen Zers, not even millennials, but Gen Zers, and the mom's like, Oh yeah, I just have to I want to sit you guys down and tell you I've had a come to Jesus moment, and uh I now see that that, that, that. And she starts, you know, saying all the ways that oh, the price of an egg, that's what I wanted. And he is a businessman, don't get me wrong, he's still a good businessman, but now I'm seeing I didn't ask for A, B, C, and D, you know, all and it's they're just like turning blue in the face and trying not to strangle her. So I feel that's how I feel. Like, um, I don't know, careful what you ask for.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:43

Yeah, we we went to a restaurant last night. Um, in my husband's family, there's uh like 12 cousins, and all the uncles and aunts are are dead. So all you know, that whole faction, yeah, section, they're all dead. So it's just the cousins. We did a family reunion, went to a Hungarian restaurant because they were Hungarian, and the the chefslash owner kept coming over and trying to make it as Hungarian as possible, and you know, talking about the memories of food and how they're connected to the family, and it was just beautiful, but then he loved it so much that I I'll use your term, Nick. He started holding court and blessed his heart, he started talking about the current administration. No, and you know, I'm not gonna say that everybody at the table is uh Democrat liberal, um, not at all. So he took his chances and he did not shut up. But by the end, he had me almost in tears, and I gave him a hug in the end because he was like talking about Hungary and dictatorship and how they lived through it and how they got through it and how we're gonna get through it and how much he loves this country. And it was like, Well, he's so brave, he might lose business, and he's talking like this.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:56

Okay, I thought he was on the other side.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:59

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:01

Okay, so we need more people like that. The mayor of Minneapolis, what's his name? We need more Bruce Springsteens, we need more Gavin Newsoms, we need the mayor of Minneapolis, he's a haughty, I can't even think of his name. We need more people with you know what it's called? Courage. Ah, we need more people with courage. Cowardly Lion, back to the I've heard business owners say, I don't, you know, I went out and demonstrated, and I know I could lose business, but you know what? What's at stake? Our humanity, not just democracy, but our humanity. It's not even a question for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:37

No, me either. I you know, remember, Andrea, when I was like doing something on my Instagram, and you were like, to it, delete your Instagram before you come back into the country because they're gonna see that you're on the wrong, you know, you're on the wrong side and you might get in trouble when they take your phone. And I thought it's if they do, I'm gonna be willing to have them take my phone because I am not it's called principle.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:59

Would you die for your principles?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:01

I don't know. I've never had Hitler with the gun to my head. You know what I mean? I've never been in that position, but I like to think I would die for my principles. Uh Don Lemon's another example right now. Have you been following that?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:13

Yeah, that was that was he's he's been um he's been in the news a lot over the past five years.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:20

Well, no, right now he's he's literally it's the assault on journalism, it's the assault on the free press, yeah. Telling the truth. And so a moment ago, when I was saying I feel like chicken little, I was trying to say it just couldn't be more obvious the role of storytelling and culture. When you have one side not just spinning the narrative in the media, but literally saying the sky is green, don't trust your eyeballs, the sky is green, and then you have sycophants. Now I'm mixing metaphors, but it's kind of like the emperor's new clothes, yeah. Where everybody's just agreeing to lie through their teeth and agree that the sky is green because if you say it enough, it's true. This it's not enough to say narrative is the um the currency of propaganda or political campaigning, it's at an all-time high. If you don't see it now, then I give up on humanity. And I wrote my book five years ago. Do you know what I mean? And you can go in science fiction, go back to Brave New World or you know, any number of sci-fi um cautionary tales and see that, yeah, we've seen this coming for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:33

Or it's very repetitive, like even Emperor's New Close. If you read it back in the you know, eight seventeen seventeen hundreds, or whenever you passed that story along, who could have known what it would mean by now?

SPEAKER_05 1:25:49

History repeats, yes. Did I say Emperor's new groove? I hope not.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:54

No, you said close.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:56

I am what I am. I'm a no, I you said close, but I thought I'm a Disney product, I might have said groove. Oops.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:04

All right. Well, I'm gonna start close, and I'm not gonna even ask my what my last question was before that, is because it was basically, you know, how do we redeem darkness through catharsis? And I think we've danced around that in multiple ways already. So we won't even go there. But I'm just gonna leave us with this question: what kinds of stories are we choosing to tell? And what kinds of humans are those stories shaping us into?

SPEAKER_05 1:26:33

I'll go first because I want to share an image before it leaves my brain. But we're talking about there has to be something to address, and this is really uncomfortable. But the stakes do get higher and higher, even on an individual level. If there's some growth to be had and you're ignoring your cycles, I say the universe speaks louder and louder to get your attention. So that's what's happening on a mass scale right now. But I just had the image of like, you gotta lift the um the doormat to see the cockroaches. And uh I don't I think it's gonna be a long haul, you know. Like Andrea said, things get worse before they get better, and it's it's gonna be tough. And maybe our grandchildren will see some kind of progress. But maybe in the meantime, like I was hinting at, just appreciate the power of storytelling and just look at the way stories are being spun in the media right now and take note. Take note that everything is storytelling. And yeah, maybe don't dwell on the problem because you're asking for more of the same by giving it mental energy, focus on the solution, tell new stories. It's I'm just repeating the premise of my book. And maybe aspirational storytelling falls in there somewhere. I think it needs to get better as a new genre because sometimes it can seem silly and irresponsible, but telling more stories where you see those role models of what we're capable of and our capacity and potential will help in the march.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:08

Amen. Yeah, absolutely. It has to be possible to tell a new story, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:13

That's literally manifestation in creativity. You gotta envision it for it to manifest. That's what vision boards are all about, right? We need to have those models, it's everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:24

And we we need to pass that on through epigen epigenetics, the the power of hope and the power of of thinking and imagining and change, transformation. And we have to keep hanging on to that because you do talk about futility a lot.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:42

Well, welcome to my world. It's a daily struggle for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:48

Well, we can't throw our hands up in the air. We have to focus on the light and you know, and progress and humanity's beautiful spirit. We have to.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:59

Michael Beckwith says a prayer you might want to repeat is I'm open and available to more good than I could have ever possibly imagined. And I think Marianne Williamson also says, like, you know, how the hell would you know what's best? You know, God has a greater perspective. So when you say, Let me do your will, and I'm not getting religious here, but you know, the collective intelligence that keeps us marching forward, if you just say, Look, use me, I'm here to serve, of course, the greater perspective is going to know how to use you, whereas you might be operating on the pleasure principle. So I just feel like there's something in there where if you're available and you your goal is to serve and also to focus on not what you want to accomplish or what you want to become, but who you want to be. If we all did that homework and started to emanate what we want to be, then Renee, as you were hinting at, through the ripple effect, how could the macro not benefit? And whenever somebody says, Oh, that's Pollyanna, you know, be the change you wish to see in the world, I do say, but it's actually the only way. So my book does go into the mechanics of the propagation of belief. How our beliefs are cemented in the first place through those highly emotional experiences and the mapping, etc. But then it talks about then how are those beliefs propagated? Well, the water cooler, sharing how was your day, sweetheart, on the pillow at night, fellowship hall at church, right? And then you go wider, you know, the social conditioning that happens in schools and churches and all of our institutions. And then, you know, it becomes policy that becomes law. Again, I quote Gandhi, like, I'm not going to get it exactly right, but you guys know that like your thoughts become your beliefs, your beliefs become your habits, your habits become your worldview, your worldview becomes your destiny, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:57

If we can all just keep these mechanics in mind, do you know what I mean? Then we can nip things in the bud or craft them. I use that example, we get our hands in the clay. And yes, Renee, be aware of what we're going to pass on via epigenetics, and then cross our fingers.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:11

That clearly stuck with me in the book. I guess because I'm expecting a new grandbaby. Anyway.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:18

Oh, really? Wait, Rosie.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:20

Rosie.

Fear Chemistry And Us Versus Them

SPEAKER_05 1:31:21

No, that I that I know. Did Jeanette have twins? Oh my see how behind I am, Renee?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:28

Well, they're just babies, they're like a month old.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:31

No, I feel horrible. She hinted at that. I was like, three? What is she talking about? And then I just saw a post in Insta of the twins. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:39

Bless her heart. It's your turn next.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:43

To have kids?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:45

Have twins.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:46

I was like, don't hold your breath. That that ship has sailed.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:52

Well, that was my final question. So um and I think Nick did a really good job wrapping up. I mean, what what I really heard in all of that is I think we need to see where we're responsible and and and and hold ourselves accountable to that responsibility.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:07

Amen. Truly.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:09

Absolutely. Just like I always come back to Joseph Campbell's statement, you know, later in his life, where seeing the picture of the earth from space, right? The blue marble. And you know, he was like, you know, the new myth, the only myth that's gonna be worth telling is one that includes everyone, no state, no nation, no division, everyone on this planet having to live together sustainably. And that's the story. That's gonna be the new story. And you know, it it might it can take thousands of years for a new myth to evolve. Do we have that long with climate? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:51

No, but it is that's why it's so uncomfortable right now because globalism it's been forced upon us. We're rolling with the punches, but I think viewing humanity as an interconnected unit is rather new, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:06

It is a good point, Nick. Yeah, think of it. We didn't even know what was going on across the world when we were little tiny tribes, and we we were just you know more focused. So this is new. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:18

The world is a smaller place, and we're feeling those growing pains, even with policy, tariffs, and things like that. Like, how are we gonna play with the other kids on the playground? Wow, it's it's a tough moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:32

I think that saying it's new, it's a new muscle that we have to flex as an as our as as a race of humans. It's new, it's new. This this incredible globalization is somewhat new. It's it's incredible.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:47

And maybe that's give giving ourselves some grace too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:52

Yeah, there you go. We we are in the moment where we all need to learn how to co-create the new narrative as humankind. Woo!

SPEAKER_05 1:34:00

You delivered, man. Okay, so thank you guys, and to our listeners, remember life is story, and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.