The Power of Story: Unveiling Spirituality and Holistic Healing with Anthropologist and Soul Aspirant Roslyn Lehman

Have you ever considered the profound impact of stories on how we perceive ourselves and the world? That's what we're unpacking today with Dominick's dear friend, Roslyn Lehman—retired educator, anthropologist, and Soul Aspirant. We're venturing into the healing powers of narrative and the potential of epigenetics to rewire those narratives, especially in the context of trauma. The world-shattering pandemic made us all pause, irrespective of socioeconomic status and privilege, allowing us to reflect on the kind of world we really want to inhabit. Manifesting it may lie in rethinking our imperialistic, patriarchal, and colonial mindsets, as well as embracing the shadow side of human nature. So, tune in to this episode for a captivating exploration of the power of story in shaping our world and the intersections of art, spirituality, and synchronicity.

To learn more about Roslyn's Tarot practice or request a reading, email her at Tarotreetarot333@gmail.com

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The Power of Storytelling and Devotion

Speaker 1 0:19

Hi guys and welcome to Language of the Soul podcast , where life is story . So normally , before introducing our guest , I would introduce Virginia , our producer extraordinaire . Her new title is Renaissance Woman . Unfortunately she's out of town so I'm flying solo today . The good news is , both my guests and I'm doing two episodes back to back today , but they're both dear friends whom I adore , and they happen to date back to the Cretaceous . Both of them I was at the time at the time of the Zabosky earlier Excuse me , I've known since literally 1990 when we interned together at Disney Feature Animation , truly a moment when the stars seemed to align . So we both have just such fond memories of that . I adore him . He's one of my favorite people on the planet and that's no exaggeration . I would say the same of Rosalyn . Only , we date back , I would say , to 1984 , is maybe when we were aware of each other through Sherry , we'll get to that I'm guessing 84 , but of course we started boroughs in 83 . But anyway , we've kept in touch all these years and truly one of the most inspiring people on the planet and the godmother of my godson , rosalyn Lehman , is a recently retired educator of 30 years .

Speaker 1 1:43

Rosalyn received her BA in anthropology from San Francisco State University . Her focus was in cultural anthropology and her senior thesis was on how sociobiology supports the status quo . Her graduate work in cultural anthropology at Cal State , la , focused on ethnography as a tool of personal and collective testimony . Her graduate work also centered on visual anthropology , and I'm going to ask you a little bit later about the documentary film that was a result of that and a bit of linguistics thrown in for good measure , focusing on silence and conversation . The majority of Rosalyn's work has been with youth experiencing trauma . Those with learning disabilities are simply in need of extra support . She was an educator in Jamaica , where she helped set up a library and school board . She did volunteer work in the bates in the Dominican Republic . Did I say bates correctly ?

Speaker 2 2:37

Batteys .

Speaker 1 2:39

Batteys , sorry Helping to found and install a school . She volunteered for Mother Teresa's Institute , the Sisters of Mercy and Haiti . In both her orphanage and school she worked as an educator in a lockdown facility in San Diego for children whose trauma was so profound they were excluded from the foster care system . Rosalyn established a library at a Waldorf-inspired school where she realized the power of story to heal and inspire . If that isn't in the spirit of this podcast , I don't know what is . Rosalyn volunteered at Menci Kang at Tibetan Medical University . Here she taught English to staff in the Body , mind , life Department . As a side note , though this is not in her bio , I happen to know that Rosalyn has more recently been a part-time beekeeper and is now reading tarot cards . So I hope you speak to that , rosalyn , but the link to your practice will be in the episode description . Okay , now tell me what I watched . I'm Rosalyn Lehman .

Speaker 2 3:43

Hello , yeah , everything was accurate except the one point . At Menci Kang the university , there was two . So the Body , Mind , Life Department is one department set up by the Dalai Lama , really to have people from different universities and different fields of medicine come together once a year for a gosh . It's like a two-week conference on how to actually assist Western society with trauma , anxiety , depression and so that I worked in that department as a transcriptionist and then in the evenings I would go to a classroom and anybody in any field of that university can come learn conversational English .

Speaker 1 4:37

Love it .

Speaker 2 4:39

So it was a little bit different .

Speaker 1 4:40

Yeah , I think I conflated all that into one . That makes a lot of sense . I don't want to just dive in too deep right away , but it seems like in our pre-interview and just now , talking about exactly what you did there and I guess , the fact that you've worked in education in the context of trauma , I just wonder if you have any thoughts on epigenetics in terms of rewiring our narratives and telling a new story dealing with trauma . But also specifically , I guess , at that particular institution Did you walk away with any observations about the stories we tell ourselves ? And again , I know that was literally the theme of your karmic yoga retreat . So I have to tell the listeners one little story .

Speaker 1 5:28

I originally thought of reaching out to you , rosalind , because of your anthropology background . So the premise of the book and of course the podcast are story has the power to transform . Individually we experience catharsis , but then of course , by extension , on the macro level , one hopes society's paradigms shift . So story is powerful , it's around us all day , every day . So for that reason we wanted a sociological perspective , an anthropological perspective and of course we're going to bring in arts and entertainment individuals who are master story tellers . But we're just kind of looking at story through different lenses . So , to be honest , I originally thought of Rosalind because we always we could talk about coupons and fingernails and have a stimulating conversation , right . So I just knew you would . You'd be very inspiring , no matter what we talked about .

Speaker 1 6:17

But I originally thought to bring you on because of your anthropology background . When I reached out to Rosalind and I keep referring to you in the third person , then the first I'm so sorry , but when I reached out to Rosalind , the first thing she said is well , let me get back to you when I'm back and telling I'm at a karmic yoga retreat . And then I don't want to put words in your mouth , but I believe you almost immediately said it's about not rewiring our narratives . But the words you used , from what I remember , were the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves , and I'm like , oh my God , you're quoting my book . So I guess , for starters , can you tell us about that karmic yoga retreat and the theme of story that seemed to be the essence of it .

Speaker 2 6:59

Yes , so the karmic yoga retreat was at a place called Sivananda's yoga farm . It's based on I don't Vishnu , david and Daya , who's a Swami and a peace activist .

Speaker 1 7:19

I'm sorry , a what activist .

Speaker 2 7:21

Peace activist oh peace , sorry , yeah . Yeah , so he actually went around the world in war torn kind of areas or and dropped a yogic information on how to achieve inner peace and , through that , outer peace , and he started a farm in Grass Valley in the 70s for people to come learn karmic yoga , which is yoga through service , and to actually how like yoga through service , not with ego attachment , with as an act of devotion . Devote devotion .

Speaker 1 8:07

Sorry , I want to explore that word a little bit . I love adoration and I love devotion . Do you , do you care to define devotion , what that looks like exactly To collective consciousness , to one's own divinity ? What is devotion exactly ?

Speaker 2 8:24

Yeah , so it would be in the sense , like collective consciousness and one's own divinity .

Speaker 1 8:29

Yeah , an extension of that .

Speaker 2 8:31

Yeah , they're not really separate . What is in is then becomes out like your experience in the outside world .

Speaker 1 8:42

Sorry , the only reason I'm exploring is there's such a fine line between devotion and sort of veneration and adoration , and sometimes it's a false worship , if that makes sense . So devotion seems the most accurate to me .

Speaker 2 8:56

Yeah , so you're working to devote in the spirit of giving service not to a particular God or goddess , not to your own ego . Look at me , I'm doing this right , Because that's a fine line . Well , it took the energy , I guess .

Speaker 1 9:19

Yes , but I think when you say it's a fine line , it's funny how they say oh , nothing is truly selfless , it's always self-serving . I hate hearing that right , because that's an ego statement . But I think if you think of yourself as an extension of divinity or call it what you want collective consciousness , collective intelligence then it's kind of contributing to the collective is a selfless act , I think , because you're extracting mind and ego from the equation .

Speaker 2 9:53

Exactly , and in the Bhagavad Gita which I discovered today , which I just picked up and read , they call it fruition , fruition , karmic yoga , yoga and action is fruition . Yeah , so you actually create a more peaceful environment through the act of service , without ego , truly just using your body and action and energy as a vessel of love .

Speaker 1 10:24

Yes , Well , I think , again , putting it in a vernacular context , I feel like there's a lot of adages , right , Like you have more to offer your immediate grassroots circle or your loved ones , your friends and family , If you do your work , your inner work . So that's a very sort of pragmatic way of looking at it . But there's also the conventional wisdom that it's only through service that we actually find satisfaction , inner peace , well-being , tranquility , right ? So if the goal of most wisdom traditions or spiritual traditions is to A limit the suffering in life , in a lot of cases Is that ego to want to limit the suffering . So a Western paradigm is a little more like oh , I'm going to sacrifice or suffer for my spirituality , Whereas you recognize the inner work as a contribution in more Eastern traditions . Does that make a little bit of sense ?

Speaker 2 11:24

Yeah . So I would say it could be ego when you're saying like I'm going to relieve suffering .

Speaker 1 11:34

In my own life . I want to find inner peace and tranquility . Do you know what I'm saying ? Some people would say , no , no , no , I'm signing up to be of service , so I'm going to flog myself and be a martyr for the cause .

Speaker 2 11:46

Yeah , so that would be ego-based too , whereas , like from my understanding with the philosophies of Shiva Ananda , is that you're not attached to the . It's the attachment that makes it ego . Yes To the outcome attachment to the outcome .

Speaker 2 12:07

And so when you're doing pure service and you're giving it your best , truly to be present and give your best to whatever type of service you're doing , whether you're washing dishes , you know whatever and you're not attached to the outcome , is when ego isn't present . So because , and then you weren't , yeah , and you're not taking so-called even credit , right , you just do your best , you're not attached to the outcome and you let it go . Yeah .

Speaker 1 12:42

And that's a beautiful place to be right when you finally say you know what Work through me , let me be in service and instead of I mean that's the irony of spiritual seeking . I do want to say real quickly I know you resisted the bio a little bit and I don't want to put words in your mouth because your journey is that of shedding mind and ego . Is that fair to say ?

Speaker 2 13:06

Absolutely fair . Yes , yeah .

Speaker 1 13:09

And so of course it's awkward to talk about one's accomplishments and yours are very impressive , by the way . I mean , you're so just versatile . I was shocked at the range right of experiences you've had . But also , you're just really smart . You're just very well-educated , you're just smart . No , you're very impressive and I think you're humble .

Speaker 1 13:34

But I guess , I don't know , my point was other than it was a kind of an interesting impasse where by saying anything definitive , like even having this podcast , you're pulling an ego , right , but then you hope that the intention is pure , you know . So I just found it all fascinating that we're both given this opportunity to work through that stuff . But to return to kind of the spirit of the podcast , I know the theme of that workshop was your personal stories , right , rewiring your narratives or retelling your personal narratives , and then I would think , by extension , culture can do the same thing , right ? So society is largely the stories that a given culture and of course there's cultural relativity but tells about itself . So I wouldn't be interested in hearing exactly how you experienced a shift in your narratives , maybe . But also I wonder back to epigenetics , if you think it's possible to rewire cultural narratives or to rewire historical baggage , or Ancestral trauma .

Speaker 1 14:45

Thank you .

Speaker 2 14:45

Exactly yeah . Or transgenerational trauma , which actually has markers on the gene . So that's what I learned with the epigenetic aspect in body , mind , life department .

Speaker 1 14:59

Is that the same as the methyl groups that can squelch a gene or allow it to express itself ? What are you actually shifting in your body when you hopefully conquer historical trauma ?

Speaker 2 15:11

Yeah , so it is . So you can turn on and off your genes based on environment , and that could be a story that could be your blood , depending on what's happening in your blood . Yeah , so , absolutely , it's the same thing . And I learned I was transcribing for a woman named Joanne Bore Senko . If anybody wants to look her up , she's amazing . She was one of the head scientists on the first writings about epigenetics . I believe she was from Cambridge and she worked with studies done in long term studies on people who practice yoga . They looked at ancestral markers on their genes . So everybody has trauma , every group has ancestral trauma , but there's certain markers on genes and when people did practices yoga practices , long term and they studied their offspring , the offspring did not even carry the markers to be turned on .

Speaker 1 16:18

Wow , I think I read about those exact studies in Bruce Lipton's . Have we talked about the biology of belief ?

Speaker 2 16:27

Yeah , a little bit . I love Bruce Lipton .

Speaker 1 16:30

Yeah , I think he referred to that exact study . I just didn't know her name .

Speaker 1 16:34

But tell me so sorry . I want to get to the bottom of it a little bit , because my feeling is , sadly , a lot of the studies focus on chemical , environmental factors , and in mice no less , and so I'm like OK , but other than chemical factors that enter through the gates and channels in the cell wall , what about local and non-local energetic signaling and that actually could be thoughts and feelings and that could be non-local , meaning the collective consciousness we've been referring to . So I think studies are going to eventually go more that direction .

Yoga, Catharsis, and Healing Trauma

Speaker 1 17:07

What exactly about the yoga practice sort of allowed I'm guessing it's methyl groups that were created or not created , but what was it about the act of engaging in yoga that kind of freed them from these markers ?

Speaker 2 17:21

Yes , and I want to clarify too , because I think in the West we think yoga is just movement .

Speaker 1 17:27

I meant to ask that actually . You want to define what yoga is as a practice .

Speaker 2 17:32

Yeah , yoga is a lifestyle of discipline in various aspects . So yoga , the movements are called asana , and so that's like working with the breath , putting an effort , at the same time relaxing , because that's like life . Right , we got to put an effort in certain clusters and then relax at that moment . So that's a practice in a breath . Meditation , all different forms of meditation , I'm not sure which kind they use . And devotion , again not sure which kind they use , mantras or… .

Speaker 1 18:07

Maybe we know what was happening in terms of little proteins being created or not created , or how are those methyl groups altered . We know what about these practices Shuttle those little particles around . Maybe there isn't an answer . Maybe that's the mystical part .

Speaker 2 18:27

What I would see is that when you do these practices , you start to see the stories we tell ourselves from a bird's eye view , and then you let them go in true forgiveness , like real forgiveness .

Speaker 1 18:44

So it's almost like a cognitive process . Partially right , Because it arises in you .

Speaker 2 18:49

Yeah , exactly , and like in for the East , you know all of it's connected . That's why the department's not body and mind and life , it's body , mind , life .

Speaker 1 18:59

I love it .

Speaker 2 19:00

That's the definition of holism right there , yeah , so it's like all connected and then you're not attached to the story so they lessen , I would assume , the energy and the emotion to emote and keep that . I think when you let them go you actually get to let them go , like when you… You're literally releasing the emotion . The tension and the connection and acknowledging that it's a story and it doesn't negate that it happened and it doesn't make it right that these things happen , but you're not emotionally attached to it anymore .

Speaker 1 19:36

That is the definition of catharsis as well . It's called purging , right ? Yeah Well , and that's why I'm just obviously gently tracing it back to story . But in my book I go into the original coining of the term catharsis and it was not a medical term and it was not the way we think of it . It was used figuratively , straight out the gate , by Aristotle and it was a moment , kind of like now , where fascism was on the fringes and freedom of expression and self-expression was being threatened and he put his foot down and said I'm going to make a case for these Greek tragedies , the cultural value of storytelling itself . He was very express about that and he talked about catharsis as freeing oneself from complexes . And he's got this list of you know , and there of course there's different modes of persuasion , but some of it is an emotional release and some of it is a cognitive shift in paradigms . There's all kinds of catharsis . Is that a good word to describe the release you're talking about ? I think so .

Speaker 2 20:40

Is it the form of ?

Speaker 1 20:40

catharsis yeah .

Speaker 2 20:42

Yeah , yeah , and with love , like loving it , like with compassion , attachment with compassion . So you have compassion for the story which is actual , I think . Love and action .

Speaker 1 20:59

Absolutely . Yeah , that shift . We were kind of talking about this earlier how , within every moment , we have the opportunity to reframe the narrative , but sometimes that's like literally the swapping out of lenses through which you view a moment or a situation right , but usually it's the shift from fear to love . To quote Marianne Williamson , a miracle is a shift from fear to love .

Speaker 2 21:25

Absolutely , and I would even say the energy or the emotion of fear is very heavy .

Speaker 1 21:32

And therefore toxic right I mean yeah , like keeps you heavy .

Speaker 2 21:37

It's like and I think maybe in the future we will be able to measure the energy levels of these emotions- Is it similar to just saying trauma equals cortisol on adrenaline and the fight or flight .

Speaker 1 21:49

I think a lot of not not clinical PTSD per se , but sort of humans have a monopoly on chronic anxiety , right ? So that's almost like keeping that cortisol and adrenaline just flowing in your body and you and I know whether you're in touch with fear or not . Some people would just call it stress , emotional stress , and that is toxic to your body and I know it firsthand . Right , stress equals inflammation , inflammation equals disease .

Speaker 2 22:19

Oh , absolutely . And when you talk about the chemicals related to stress , you know you think of what happens in our lives as children and adults . That also includes the birthing process and in the womb , because if the mother is stressed , the child just eats up the cortisol in the adrenaline . That is literally their food .

Speaker 1 22:44

So yeah , they're kind of- .

Speaker 2 22:46

Ancestral trauma . Ancestral trauma , absolutely it can't be in absence .

Speaker 1 22:49

So it can be in your DNA , right , because you inherited a sort of tendency toward depression , for example . I think we've already talked about this . Let's say , an African-American parent feels the need to have that really unfortunate conversation with their child about what to do to not be shot . Right , when you're pulled over by a cop , and then I would say you know , it's the wrong week to be talking about this , but when you say , oh , history will repeat itself unless we keep telling that story about the Holocaust , that's a necessary conversation , right ? So are we perpetuating and beating a threadbare drum and kind of limiting our capacity and potential to evolve ? Or do you know what I mean ? Are we actually repeating a cultural narrative because it has value ? What I think we're hitting on here is there is cellular memory . It is in your DNA . Until you conquer right and create new methyl groups , it is in your DNA . So the whole nature and nurture thing is alive and well , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 23:49

Yeah , absolutely . And then also as far as like any genocide , because there's so many and you know we live in North America and that was probably the biggest genocide that's ever taken place in the history as far as numbers go , and then we can look at the genocide and then again the atrocities and its constant genocide hasn't stopped , obviously , but like not then again not attach ourselves to the story and then realize everybody , no matter the perpetrators or the receivers of that violence , we're all hurt .

Speaker 1 24:32

So it's kind of like taking a meta view of the situation . Like you're saying , limit the attachment , take a meta view and maybe tap into the shared humanity by both right the perpetrator and the victim .

Speaker 2 24:44

Yes , exactly Beautiful . And then give the victims , no matter how long ago , a choice to speak about how they feel , and so they can be like purged .

Speaker 1 25:00

How do you feel about reparations ? I'm sorry if I'm moving too quickly , but I wonder if you feel reparations are in order in these cases .

Speaker 2 25:09

I'm feeling , if the cultural groups from the Trump who received the Trump tell us that that is what they feel would be justified for them , then the other , the perpetrators- you honor it the ancestors . You honor it and then then can we collectively get together , honor both of our , all of our ancestors , and forget , mention them , forgive them . Move on Move forward with a different mindset perspective .

Speaker 1 25:44

Absolutely .

Speaker 2 25:44

Yeah .

Speaker 1 25:46

The only reason that came up for me is I just lately I've said you know , it doesn't matter how long it takes . And the Middle East , I mean obviously Israel is a great example Like how far back are we going to go in figuring out nobody owns the land number one , right . But how far back does the trauma go ? And I guess I feel like again with this country , as long as it takes . There is , there are reparations , but there's atonement . How about atonement ?

Speaker 2 26:19

I love that yes , yeah .

Speaker 1 26:22

So you know , I just think , as long as it takes , that's what we need to do , yeah , yeah absolutely .

Speaker 2 26:30

And I think , like also our ancestors , not only genetically live through us , like we might have the eyes of our great , great great grandfather , or it might show up as a safe . You know , typically we also energetically , sometimes carry the weight of the trauma or even the ancestral ego .

Speaker 1 26:54

Also on the nurture level . You just hear the stories from your grandparents . It's very sort of empirical and tangible in some ways too .

Speaker 2 27:03

Oh yeah , and also not only the stories that couldn't be told . Wow .

Speaker 1 27:10

I'm going to 100% trace this back to story now in a very concrete way , just because that's the spirit of the podcast . But I think it's fascinating when you kind of use this country as an example . Of course there's slavery that's going to haunt us for , you know , generations to come still , but the Native American genocide that you mentioned I think you were hinting at the Native Americans yeah .

Speaker 1 27:33

I feel like narrative plays such a big part . Because did we really sit down and have turkey and corn on the cob straight out the gate ? That's the bow that we put on that .

Speaker 2 27:44

Oh , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 27:46

It's almost like we're supplanting the real story with prettier stories . So that is the power , right . And then it just went on from there , like we justify capitalist greed by saying manifest destiny , and we're overcomers . The westward movement proved that . And then the dust bowl . We just have so many layers of the Marlboro man in our cultural DNA . Yes , absolutely .

Speaker 2 28:09

These are stories that for the people in power and it's the knowledge that people in power control . The knowledge to control , the story to control the populace the populace and the position in it .

Speaker 1 28:25

Yeah , it's propaganda , but I guess I got to the point where I thought well , nobody really is sitting in a swiveling chair petting a cat with a twisty mustache . You know , the third Reich had a style guide . It was very much by design . You know what I mean Use this typeface , not that one . So the story was absolutely fabricated and very conscious . But in general , when you hear things like oh , the government uses materialism and consumerism to oppress the populace , I don't think there's a handbook , but I think human nature is what it is and power seeking is what it is and it just is the natural progression of things .

Speaker 2 29:04

Yeah , I mean okay . So this is what I think of too , because during the time well , okay , I just want to mention there's still slavery on this planet , but during the time of American enslaving Africans and indigenous people but just say the African time to walk by somebody tied to a pole , during that time period of like an escaped slave , we wouldn't bat an eye . Most people would just walk by the person . Because that's the energy and the narrative . And the time at that time where I think of consuming now we consume so many products and things that come from slavery or that we know are actually like child labor and children are being hurt and dying and stuff so we can get our goods , and yet we don't speak too much to that , even to date . You know what I'm saying ?

Speaker 1 30:00

It's too threatening , it's too threatening .

Speaker 2 30:03

Yeah , yeah , so we can't . And then we'd be like , well , that's economics and that's business , and like we really compartmentalize right .

Speaker 1 30:10

Exactly , we compartmentalize and I do think there's a shift . I mean to put a little , I guess , silver lining on it . Dave and I this morning we're just talking about how capitalism really is not going anywhere . I mean , obviously democracy is in peril , but I don't know that capitalism is going away anytime soon . But there are shifts and paradigms where , like Mary Ann Williamson talks a lot about it , how you know , at Trader Joe's you never would have heard the contentment or the well-being of the employees , even being on the radar right of the higher ups . And now there's talk about love , the word love that gets thrown around in boardrooms . It is a shift in the model that we're observing .

Interconnectivity and Reflection During the Pandemic

Speaker 1 30:52

Have you ever had 12 years a slave ?

Speaker 2 30:54

Oh yes .

Speaker 1 30:56

So it is back to something you said a moment ago whether you turn a blind eye , right , or are completely unaffected , you don't have a moral dilemma about what's going on around you . I think we excuse a lot of lapses and ethics . Right , our forefathers were sitting here talking about personal liberty and individualism as long as you are white , you know and so through today's lens , we find those contradictions and we see the hypocrisy . But again , did they really know ? Or were they just so immersed in sort of our imperialistic mindset or superiority that it didn't even occur to them ? Actually , we're all human . I guess my point is when I read 12 years , a slave , oh my God , it is so vivid you feel like it was written yesterday , if that makes sense so vivid and immediate that I , after reading that , I thought , nope , they all knew exactly what was going on . But if you had a plantation and you're whole livelihood and that of your children and grandchildren was it stake you sell out ? I think everybody knew what was going on .

Speaker 2 32:03

I would say , like comes back to that idea that we are individually like we okay , so there were individuals and and that that is ego taking care of and survival and taking care of yourself and your family , and I would go more with like to not hunt the idea of inter our , we enter our , we in reality , like if we told the story that we enter our and that our actions actually affect all and come back and affect us .

Speaker 2 32:40

Perhaps we wouldn't be able to turn a blind eye , whether it's through philosophy , survival type of stories .

Speaker 1 32:50

I think this moment is about our interconnectivity . Right that is . That's where we're headed .

Speaker 2 32:56

Absolutely . And yeah , that we . And then there's a science , there are institutions trying to , you know , working on ways to scientifically prove it , you know , with different types of machinery and so forth , and well , I think we know about entanglement . Yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 1 33:18

Let's start there that every particle of the universe is actually entangled , so it's not a huge leap to speak of collective consciousness If we honor our interconnectivity , which I think that's where we're headed . That is the future . I saw the pandemic as a big cultural time out , literally at the very moment where a virus was making it clear we're all interconnected , right , we're all vulnerable because of our interconnectivity . At that exact same moment , we were forced into isolation .

Speaker 2 33:51

So , and then it also , I just like , because it definitely that the virus affected all regard , you could say , in some levels , regardless of position .

Speaker 1 34:01

Meaning like socioeconomic status or privilege .

Speaker 2 34:05

Supposed like in some ways , or that at least was one of the stories told . And at the same time you also saw play out and when I talk about capitalism , I'm talking about predatory capitalism . I'm not talking about just you have a good business and you're doing well . You're not , you know , predatory capitalism . So only certain people got to access the vaccine , got the OK .

Speaker 1 34:31

There are several cultural narratives , because one is yeah , nobody was exempt . It didn't matter if you were I'm going to say it shading on a golden toilet like Trump or not . Everybody was vulnerable . And yet the other cultural narrative is it really widened the gap between the haves and the have nots in terms of who had access medically ?

Speaker 2 34:50

Yeah , and who you could actually see , and also even the idea of isolation . Some people no problem , other people had to walk miles from the village and go sleep in trees . Wow , yeah you know what I mean . Like because they couldn't and they weren't going to eat if they .

Speaker 1 35:06

Right , right . Well , I guess I was getting at . If you had a degree of stability or security , there was isolation . You know that took place , and for me it was a time of introspection or was an opportunity to reflect , an opportunity to slow the F down yeah , it may be a tone , but literally to slow down . For five minutes the air quality improved in LA , there was zero traffic . I thought this is the world I want to live in . I really just .

Speaker 1 35:37

I'm so nostalgic about the beginning of the pandemic . I can't even tell you . People initially were like what is the meaning in all this ? What is the cultural shift on the horizon ? And , as you know , I had just had my brush with death 18 days in the hospital . Everything had changed for me , so I actually didn't bat an eye when the pandemic came along , because it was just as surreal as everything else in my world , so I had a wait and see attitude . I wasn't that quick to project meaning onto it .

Reflections on Paradigms and Interconnectivity

Speaker 1 36:04

Eventually , though , when I saw people with their entitlement , they couldn't forget about socialism , right ? Or they couldn't even keep their own entitlement at bay long enough to do the right thing for their 80 year old mother or me . I was immunocompromised , right to wear a mask . Oh no , that's too inconvenient . So you really did start to see people's entitlement come out , and I guess that's when I thought , hmm , maybe what we're supposed to be reflecting on here are all the paradigms that got us into this mess , like patriarchy , and then everything that stems from patriarchy and imperialism , like colonialism , like capitalist greed . Does that make sense ? We were meant to be rethinking those paradigms . They haven't worked for 500 years . It was a nudge , yeah yeah , and that .

Speaker 2 36:55

not only were our bodies colonized , our mind was colonized , everybody's mind was colonized . It is in everything academics , economics , philosophy , you know , it's in just everything . Everybody was colonized .

Speaker 1 37:18

Wow , it's brainwashing right at its best .

Speaker 2 37:21

Yeah , yeah . And we can't move through it if we can just stand a little , not to not like in a depressive way and again in a detached way , but stand in the grief a little bit to see where we're at .

Speaker 1 37:34

Well , when I mentioned kind of shifting the narrative and talking about turkeys and corn on the cob instead of the atrocities that happened , maybe that's what that is , the denial that we're so comfortable with , right , and so Thomas More would say well , embrace the shadow side of human nature , not just the melancholy . I think Western , western Judeo-Christian culture is really quick to ascribe good , bad , right , wrong to otherwise neutral circumstances and conditions . Right , so Yin and Yang is more about understanding the complementary relationship between light and shadow , and so , again , I'm a big fan of Thomas More embracing the shadow . Maybe those are the kinds of syntheses or integrations that we're being called upon to implement .

Speaker 2 38:26

Not that I have any answers , but Well , just and just , maybe we don't have to have answers right now , Maybe we just collectively can since we enter our can , stand in that idea that , like wow , we really were taken over by this perspective , regardless of where you were on the spectrum , and let's just feel it . Stop trying to push it away .

Speaker 1 38:53

Yep , compassion . The very meaning of compassion is be with the passion , to sit with , sit with the pain . Yeah , don't judge it , don't give advice .

Speaker 2 39:03

Exactly , exactly , exactly , just . Here we are , while we are now really in a collective conundrum . Money is not going to get us out of these situations . You'll be the richest person on the planet , unless you can try to go to other planets , you know .

Speaker 1 39:20

Well , we're working on it .

Speaker 2 39:21

We desperately know we're going to have to find another rock to live on , so yeah , and it's also coming from again another place of privilege , because the people working on it are very privileged , have lots of money and tend to come out of the same socioeconomic cultural backgrounds and born into intergenerational wealth .

Speaker 1 39:48

Privilege nepotism Privilege .

Speaker 2 39:50

Yeah , yeah , and their idea is to go to another planet .

Speaker 1 39:56

You're not talking about Elon Musk , are you ?

Speaker 2 39:58

I think I'm not , I don't know Elon Musk or Bill Gates , or no , but I think I mean the submersible .

Speaker 1 40:05

Did you follow the Titanic submersible explosion ?

Speaker 2 40:08

A little bit , yeah , like that is absolutely privileged at its .

Speaker 1 40:12

Yeah , and the fact that they pretended they knew exactly what happened and they spent so much money right Keeping up the guys that there was some hope . Anyway , that just to me outlined exactly what you're talking about .

Speaker 2 40:25

Yeah , yeah , and so obviously I'm not to vilify , because people are born into their lane , I guess , and so that is their reality and remember they're from children getting up in this and not saying that individuals are bad people or anything , but it's just that energy and that actual privilege where you just go to another planet and to disregard the science and the beliefs and the knowledge of a whole bunch of other cultures who are completely connected to this earth and as a living being .

Speaker 1 41:00

Yeah , it's really popular right now . I'm sure you've heard this sentiment . It's really popular to say , oh , earth will be fine without us , like the ecosystem will repair itself . We can just move on .

Speaker 2 41:11

No earth , we wouldn't be here . Humans are like the bridge . I love that You're a human . Yeah , humans are the bridge . I think earth would be very sadly .

Speaker 1 41:25

Well , to me , it's tragic that we have so much capacity and we have so much potential .

Speaker 1 41:30

Absolutely and going back to the pandemic , though , I guess the cynical part of me thanks God . Did we really take the opportunity to slow down or are we back to In LA ? It was so clear . Oh , I guess we're back to everyday life . Okay , well , more traffic than ever . Smog levels are back up . It was so clear .

Speaker 1 41:50

If that doesn't exemplify how people dropped the ball on the spiritual opportunity put on our collective path to reflect and maybe shift paradigms , I don't know what does . I saw people going back to their old tricks . So I'm not being cynical . I do think the hope and I say it all the time like I need a reason to get up in the morning , just like everybody else . I give up on humanity every day and then my faith is in doing things like this that make me feel purposeful . So my creative efforts are 100% my salvation . But I guess my hope for the future really does lie in as much as I've taught for 20 years college level . So I see the differences with each incoming generation . I have 22 nieces and nephews . I've watched them all grow up . I have my opinions , trust me , about Gen Z years and millennials . But the beauty is , as a member of the LGBTQ community myself , I never would have imagined this much progress in my lifetime . Of course there's still work to be done . Right , there's people being stoned and hung in certain countries .

Speaker 1 42:59

But a lot of work to be done , but I never even imagined marriage equality . I'm going to not make this about me in just a minute , but that gets me up in the morning the fact that it is a complete non-issue for the Gen Z-er generation .

Speaker 1 43:13

And so , on that front , when we talk about all these , I call them imaginary divisiveness . Everything that we talk about that's causing this major divisiveness , whether it's , I don't know , empiricism and rationalism , meaning faith and science . It's completely an illusion . If you just shift your perspective or your semantics , we're speaking the same language . So my book is largely about let's synthesize some of these thought forms and thereby overcome the divisiveness . So if you think of masculine and feminine , left brain , right brain which we're really not talking about anymore right , left brain , right brain is an illusion . We're using different parts for brain on an as needed basis with every task . So I guess my point is I think back to what you were saying earlier about the story of interconnectivity not to put words in your mouth being the future . I feel like isn't that illustrated beautifully in the embracing of the non-binary right now ?

Speaker 2 44:10

Oh , absolutely . And I'm going to like , even like , when I think of Tick-Mot-Haunt that we enter , are we literally ?

Speaker 1 44:17

no-transcript . We have it all in us . Is that the idea ?

Speaker 2 44:21

We really are each other . It's like we're connected . Yes , we enter R . We are each other .

Speaker 1 44:29

I had never heard that I do read Tick-Nut Hawn . I had never heard to enter R .

Speaker 2 44:35

Yeah , it was one of his students . They wrote the last book of and I can't think of the name right now , but it's like saving the planet or something , or how to say . But it really isn't about the planet , it's about consciousness . Consciousness and realizing that through that it's like when we realize we are each other and we enter R and all sentient beings .

Speaker 1 45:00

Yeah , I wonder if you took a Jungian view that there's this collective unconscious and the archetypes just live in us . Would you say we have the whole of human experience available to us in that way ? The example I use is like oftentimes you'll hear oh , that straight actor shouldn't be playing a gay role . I'm the one guy who's like , well , that's what it is to be an actor , you know . And Emily Bronte wrote Wuthering Heights with very little life experience , but she had access to that reservoir of archetypes . Oh God , do you feel we have access to ? Do you know what I mean ? All genders , all experiences , at all times .

Speaker 2 45:38

Oh , absolutely , I'm going to say to speak to .

Authenticity & Purpose

Speaker 2 45:44

I do feel it's important for people that come from the culture to portray the story ?

Speaker 1 45:49

Oh , of course , of course . There's this Scorsese film right now about I forget which tribe . Have you heard about it ?

Speaker 2 45:58

Oh , yes , about the flower moon . That's something in the blood as a flower moon , or something like that .

Speaker 1 46:04

Yes , they're doing it right this time , man , I'm telling you .

Speaker 2 46:08

Yeah , that's the celebration . Yeah , maybe it's taken us this long and here we are and now we're going forward , if that makes sense .

Speaker 1 46:17

Yeah , I think it's important to focus on those luminaries . You know , as down as I can get , I do choose what to give airtime to . I have become that guy . I never want to be an ostrich who puts his head in the sand , but I do limit my news intake because , frankly , I don't think it's natural and I don't even like that word , but particularly natural to have the world be such a small place that you feel feudal , right in the face of all the societal ills that you have no power to change . I think we're meant to focus on our grassroots circle and make a difference in the lives of our loved ones and trust that that's enough and that the ripple effect will play its part . I guess I renew my hope by focusing on luminaries like oh Scorsese man for an old man he's pretty woke , you know and the progress with marriage , equality and issues like that . I focus on the progress .

Speaker 2 47:13

Yes , yes and remember . The news is also within that whole structure .

Speaker 1 47:22

Propaganda .

Speaker 2 47:23

Propaganda and a narrative to hold power , whether they consciously know it or not .

Speaker 1 47:29

That's what I was going to say . It's so unexamined like let's keep them in a state of fear all day , every day .

Speaker 2 47:35

You know , yeah , yeah and keep it weird . If we had news that mentioned the beauty in the world or all the amazing things that are happening , we wouldn't have the juice to make more bomb .

Speaker 1 47:50

All right , it's feeding the cultural addiction to cortisol and adrenaline . Yeah , so the one story about the fireman who saved the kitty from the tree , that's not enough .

Speaker 2 48:01

Yeah , that's not enough . After like this horrible like , oh my you can't recover because now you're not even in the thing is to , then it affects our nervous system . I do believe that that is known and then we are in our emotional body . We cannot we're not in our frontal lobe to then be nuanced .

Speaker 1 48:21

Right . It's almost like in the last 30 seconds and if fireman saved the cat from tree but I'm done and the music comes in and you're out .

Speaker 2 48:30

There's so many amazing humans and on this planet doing beautiful work and just living from their heart , and you know yeah .

Speaker 1 48:47

I think you've prioritized surrounding yourself with those .

Speaker 2 48:50

Yes , that would be called sat song in the karmic yoga Yoga , another part of yoga sat song . You surround yourself with people who are focusing on learning about them , their own self right , controlling their mind and ego , caring for their body as a temple and living for , to use it as a vessel to do service Like I can't remember . St Francis is like prayer , but it's something to you know . Please , let me be a vessel for you . Yeah .

Speaker 2 49:25

And you surround yourself with that and then it just ripples out and it's not . And again you're not negating the situation , like when I worked for the Sisters of Charity . You know those women , like they were nuns and they're very spiritual and they were walking the walk right . They were just there , they're in the trenches , they're in the trenches and being loving at the same time and not breaking down and you know , putting their head in the water and then the answer yeah . There are so many people like that on this beautiful planet .

Speaker 1 50:01

Well , I love that you surrounding yourself with those on a similar .

Speaker 2 50:04

Oh , it's sat song .

Speaker 1 50:05

Yeah , so I would say that is walking the walk . This came up in the last interview too . You know , Mother Teresa once said I haven't seen evidence of God for her , and I don't . I think it was like 10 years , but she did the work , and that's what faith is . So I think it's always a beautiful thing when you see it being applied in the trenches . And so this week I have a challenge . I have a person in my life who is so negative . You just feel like you need a shower afterward . Right , and so you try to maintain your high vibration and , you know , try to find your compassion , but at some point you're of no service to anyone else . If your vibration is dragged down to a lower flying disc , right , and so that is the balance in life . Right is to try to be of service , but yet take the measures to maintain your own vibration , and what I mean is caring off about your own thoughts and feelings to honor them .

Speaker 2 50:59

Yes , absolutely . And then that , because that's like your authentic self living . Your authentic self too , which also plays a big part back to the epigenetics right In healing , is when you are being authentic to yourself .

Speaker 1 51:15

That heals all , or that .

Speaker 2 51:18

Well , it changes the stress level , like it can change your stress level in your cortisol or , when you aren't authentic , it actually changes your body . You know the physiology of your body and the endocrine system of your body and all of it right , because when you are authentic in your self , accepting it's healing . Because you're at a different frequency , you don't have that same type of stress .

Speaker 1 51:49

I want to dovetail off of that and see if you feel similarly . I do notice again , speaking of the younger generation and kind of what I observe , they have very little interest in societal institutions . They don't want to work for the man , they don't want to be part of the rat race . There is suddenly cultural value on a number of things finding your voice in whatever your craft is right , finding your voice and that's another way of saying connecting your craft with purpose and then contributing back . I think it's a beautiful thing . Some of it has a consumer slat to it . Right , it's brand building and it's platform building . But really , because there some would say you know , job options are limited , a lot of jobs are becoming automated . These kids today are really in touch with the idea of figuring out their effing purpose on this planet and contributing it . That is a beautiful thing . So is that a little bit related ?

Speaker 2 52:49

Yes , I agree . I think the thing that they have to navigate though , because you know how we have so many layers of almost like avatars of ourselves or inauthentic , like when you're perhaps you know you're at a certain workplace and you have to be a certain way .

Speaker 1 53:08

So we have personalities , but then we also have roles . I'm a son , I'm a student , I'm a daughter , right yeah .

Speaker 3 53:16

And then they have this is me on Instagram . This is Facebook .

Speaker 2 53:19

This is me , and so there's a whole other layer which I think that actually does inauthentic , which actually does cause more stress and stuff , so I would even venture that sometimes that's actually hurting our younger generations .

Speaker 1 53:36

Yeah , I think that's why I qualified and said sometimes it takes the form of brand building or platform building , because I think the drive to value creativity as an end in itself couldn't be bad , but I think , sadly , they're more consumerist than we ever were . I think we had our guilty pleasures . My sisters were four years older than us and they were the first generation to buy designer jeans from Glory of Adderbelt and Shemendaffer , but they knew it was a guilty pleasure . At least they had some shame about it . Taking a selfie do you know how mortified we would have been to take a selfie ? And now I won't name any names , but some of my younger relatives . Every single Instagram shot there's a wine glass in the hand and toes in this hand , every one of them and the filter .

Speaker 2 54:26

Yeah , yeah . So again , it's a tool and then if you are living an authentic life , I believe it gives you the ability to be more centered and realize , okay , or to get out of the market . I'm going to have to do a brand and this is going to be like my altered ego for my thing , but not again , not attached to it , it's not you right , it's just a tool , and so I'm sure there are people out there like that and I just I think , when it comes to more damage and stuff , it's when the young , young ones are doing that stuff , like 10 and nine and like that's a whole other , when they haven't even , when they're just forming their ego , right right , you know what .

Speaker 1 55:11

I mean Of course .

Speaker 2 55:13

Yeah , so that's a different thing , I think .

Speaker 1 55:15

I think during very formative years it does a lot of damage and that's why earlier , when we were talking about censorship in terms of hate speech or even bullying online , I'm actually not really opposed to that kind of censorship because all the studies show how damaging it can be , you know .

Speaker 2 55:35

Yeah , absolutely Especially yeah , for children , and you know , I just for anybody out there who have children . The American Pediatric Association did a like a long term study , another long term study , years , and they looked at screen time from zero to three , three to five , five to eight , eight to 12 , 12 to 16 and then 16 to 20 . And the damage and the brain damage is actually changing the structure of the brain . And so zero to three , they're like no , no screen time , zero , none , and three to five , it's like 15 minutes a week or something to that effect . It's out there , it's on the American Pediatric Association site . It's changing the brain stems , delaying the frontal lobe reaction time , which is what you need to like cross the street or ride your bike safely , you know .

Speaker 1 56:34

That explains so much . I'm sorry , that explains so much .

Speaker 2 56:38

It's also taking responsibility as adults and so absolutely , if there's ways we can like stop the bullying online and all this kind . You know that's not pretty speech . To me , that's like you get the hide in my progressions and actually create even more mental illness and so forth , and you know .

Speaker 1 57:01

Well , talking about the ripple effect , it's like the just the mean spiritedness that you see in online comments where , yes , they're anonymously throwing out literally negative energy into the universe with seemingly no consequences . But we all know there's , you know , a boomerang effect .

Speaker 2 57:18

Absolutely . There's consequences , you know .

Speaker 1 57:21

But in 100% humor . Have you heard about the nubs that Gen Z years are growing on their skulls ?

Speaker 2 57:32

No , okay .

Speaker 1 57:33

Well , check me , check me on this . There was an article , probably five , seven years ago now , and they were saying all the screen time and all this sort of subtle , subtle bending of the neck to look down at your cell phone was creating . Horns Was the word they used , or nubs

Gender, Politics, and Social Issues Discussion

Speaker 1 57:52

on the back of the school . Calcium deposits .

Speaker 2 57:54

Oh , on the back of the school . Yes , I have . Yes , and the stem , the brain stem , yes , yes .

Speaker 1 58:03

The stem is a question , brain stem , but I think they were saying it's just where the ligament attaches to the skull . It creates a deposit , a calcium deposit . But all of it is frightening .

Speaker 2 58:12

Yeah Well , the stem itself is being stunted .

Speaker 1 58:15

Wow , sure , I don't know if this is a parallel , but my sister , long before social media , took them hostage . She homeschooled her children for middle school just middle school . Because she kind of remembered her junior high school years , back to the Dittos and the Shemanda Ferres , I guess , and she thought , oh well , especially girls , right , are so vulnerable at that age and their body image is so important . And so she just knew I'm going to take my kids out for junior high and then she put them back in public school for high school . It worked somehow .

Speaker 2 58:50

Yeah , and you know , going back to like universals and things , and one thing like studying in anthropology a universal that happens in all cultures , you know , or all the cultures that were studied . Nobody studied all the cultures , but 12-year-old girls lose their self-esteem across the board .

Speaker 1 59:09

Exactly . Yeah , that's the reason , regardless of social media influences or positive body image associations . What is the answer to that ? Is it just going to happen , no matter what we do ?

Speaker 2 59:21

Well , I would definitely connect to like patriarchy and the disconnection to nature .

Speaker 1 59:31

you know all of it because Because it's not a natural state of being , it does not serve evolution in any way , right ?

Speaker 2 59:40

No , no , but it's just . Girls are looked upon and they become objectified , I think emotionally and stuff . They aren't ready to handle all that .

Speaker 1 59:48

It's back to patriarchy .

Speaker 2 59:50

Yeah , you know .

Speaker 1 59:51

I just Meryl Streep , who does no wrong . She walks on water . She's beyond reproach , she's a goddess . And there's a lot of quotes misattributed to her online . I don't know if you caught them , but this is not a misattribution . I saw the video . It came from her mouth , unless it was AI , of course , but she was talking in a panel and she said well , you know and I don't know if I agree 100% , but I totally got the sentiment she was like you know what ? Women speak male ? They've been immersed in it they speak male , but men don't speak female . Does that land with you immediately ?

Speaker 2 1:00:30

In some , absolutely in some ways , and I want to also say yeah , absolutely , because if you think we've never had a woman president , and most of the it's not until just recently , where we did get a lot of Congress people , younger people , but usually women weren't even allowed to enter the government until they were going through menopause , isn't ?

Speaker 1 1:00:49

that interesting yeah , like Madeline Albright .

Speaker 2 1:00:53

Yeah , like , because then you know our hormones change and stuff , but that's , I don't think that's like a coincidence .

Speaker 1 1:01:01

Is it in a book somewhere ? Is that like a regulation , or it just happy evolved that way ?

Speaker 2 1:01:05

It evolved that way . It's in the .

Speaker 1 1:01:07

Well , you can't have them getting hysterical and getting all emotional on policy issues .

Speaker 2 1:01:12

I can't believe .

Speaker 1 1:01:13

I thought Because then you'd have to lobotomize them or put them in asylums , you know , or I mean or at the very least drug them up like we did in the 50s .

Speaker 2 1:01:23

Yeah , like so it does resonate . And then , speaking to it as well , there are a lot of men who are in touch with the feminine side and that patriarchy hurts everybody .

Speaker 1 1:01:36

A little more , just came back to me after she said that it was a panel of men , by the way . That's what was so funny . She said well , but men don't really speak , women . And so , without missing a beat , the guy next to her , it was someone , it was some directory that I should know , I'm sure , but he turned in . He said what Merrell's trying to say is he started mansplaining . It was perfection it was perfection .

Speaker 1 1:01:59

Yeah , and she oh God . It was all in humor , but he , she busted out laughing . What Merrell's trying to say is yeah .

Speaker 1 1:02:11

I love the diversity in Congress now . I love seeing the diversity I'm not as thrilled about Now . I'm kind of really on a soapbox today . But I'm not as thrilled about this idea that we need younger politicians . I mean , nobody wants Biden to croak in the next few years and , yes , there's a lot of good old boys in the network but whatever happened to the cultural value that we used to place on what we called wisdom right , the wisdom of experience ? It's like . I'm not going to think of her name right now , but is it Annie Leibowitz ? Is she a photographer or is it Annie ?

Speaker 2 1:02:50

Is she a writer ? Yeah , annie Leibowitz , I got it right . She was a journalist , right .

Speaker 1 1:02:54

Yeah , but I always mix the two up . Anyway , annie , I adore her and she said I was right around the time Trump was campaigning , he hadn't won yet , and she's like , okay , I like Hillary now because apparently she had spoken out against Hillary , and she's like okay , we all have to like Hillary now because that's our option and she goes .

Speaker 1 1:03:13

You know people like and I don't say his name on this podcast , the T word , but I'll just call him the orange asshole , for now she said so . A lot of people support the orange asshole because he's not a politician and she's like could you imagine having a clogged pipe and you call your friend and say I have , I have a clogged pipe . Do you know anyone who's not a plumber ? So I feel that way about the idea . Oh , we need some fresh blood , we need more AOCs , we need more youth . Well , maybe not , because there is the hubris of youth and one hopes that time on the planet equals wisdom at some point .

Speaker 2 1:03:55

Do you follow ? Yeah , but I do , although I . There's wisdom . So , within the politicians , politicians do what they do , regardless of what side of the fence they are . I mean , that's the they are . Their wisdom is within politics , and politics , Again , I think , hold like a narrative , a story , of course , of course , and there's not necessarily the wisdom of follow through , or you know what I'm saying , like I think , as a general statement , we always need to balance the idealism of youth right and the possibilities and the capacity and , frankly , the there are rebels without a cause .

Speaker 1 1:04:38

They will just rebel against institution at all costs . We need to value that . We also need to not take our old folks out to the field and shoot them the minute we see them as irrelevant so there's a balance between wisdom of experience . But I agree with you that you know there's a particular agenda in politics .

Speaker 2 1:04:55

And there's a bigger and a bigger story like what is the story where we do find our elderly relevant and we don't honor their stories , or you know or what ? And then the story itself . Okay , I know people are probably going to , it's like the Constitution , even . Oh yeah , yeah . Like , and how did that come about ? And who was excluded ? And why are we so attached to something that perhaps is ideal but not necessarily being executed ? For lack of a better word , or could we write something new now , collectively ? Right right , you know that isn't .

Speaker 1 1:05:38

We fall short of . I do think it's aspirational right and the personal liberty and the individualism that we were touting back then . It's like we fall short of it , right , but it is still a great ideal , you know . Again , someone else would say , okay , but our founding fathers also held slaves while they were talking about personal liberty and equality . So there's hypocrisy there , but I don't think it's outdated . Frankly , I think certain clauses are , you know , like the right to bear arms Was there . Should we ever need to overthrow the government ? Hey , that ain't never going to happen at this point , right , most militarily powerful countries on the planet .

Speaker 2 1:06:19

So , oh yeah , we kind of got close , though in some ways .

Speaker 1 1:06:22

Right in a scary scary way , yeah , but you know what I mean ? It's really not there for the reasons people , I guess , give lip service today . It was there to overthrow the government , but anyway , next you're going to say the Bible is outdated and we should be pragmatic and update the Bible , right ?

Speaker 2 1:06:40

No , the Bibles are religious Okay . You know this is a secular and it's a way we govern and treat our people within this country and people without this country . And again , I think , like yes itself , it's just a document that we aspire to . However , in reality , we are convoluted and we're mixed with the military and there's big business lobbyists and we don't have equality and we people don't have the right to be sovereign . I mean , look at , you know , it's just like work . Fall back on it as like , oh , we got it , we don't .

Speaker 2 1:07:23

it's basically we're like insane because you know we have this thing for yourself , you know , but we're not really following it any level , or maybe we need to , like , go even further . We're all human , all sentient beings , you know . Let's just try our best not to do harm . You know , like , sometimes a constitution like that , like Okay , here's how I look .

Speaker 1 1:07:50

I mean , in theory , you would say , well , constitutional amendments . We do have a structure in place to amend the constitution , so in theory , changes with the times because we can amend it . But I think what we're saying here is government has no category for spirituality . That's when I loved I mean , that's why I loved that Marianne Williamson ran . Did you listen to her at all around ?

Speaker 2 1:08:15

that time yeah .

Speaker 1 1:08:17

I love that is where we're headed . It's it's a long way off . But do you know what I mean ? Governing ? And you get into problematic territory . We , when you talk about the tripartite state , right and how , oh , we all have our different gifts and the governing class . But I think integration , we keep talking about interconnectivity , we're talking about integrating left and right , brain and masculine and feminine . These things are happening . So I don't . I think the paradigms are going to merge where we don't compartmentalize government . And I , by the way , I want to go back a little bit . I'm not that cynical . People say oh , it's the lesser of evils , which candidate ? They're all corrupt , I'm sorry . No , there are some people that go into it as public servants and do more and get off their ass every day than most of us have done in a lifetime to make their difference through public service . I'm not kidding , I hold that belief .

Speaker 1 1:09:10

I also I also know they get corrupted . I also know they have lifestyles to maintain , so they'll say whatever they need to say to their constituents to get reelected . That visual cycle is alive and well also , you know . So maybe the younger ones still are idealistic about it . Is that fair to say ? That's why people love the younger politicians .

Speaker 2 1:09:31

Yeah , absolutely . I think it's fair to say , and I would say that the ones that are doing the groundwork and stuff are usually the ones that we don't hear too much .

Speaker 1 1:09:40

Like the grassroots level in a large yeah , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 2 1:09:42

we don't hear too much about them again , because we just hear what kind of what's in the news , unless of like , I write my congressman all the time , you know .

Speaker 1 1:09:54

Yeah , a lot of people have opinions about policy , but do they ever really take action ? You know , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 2 1:10:00

And then it is like I think , honestly , if we get like , one thing would be to get rid of the lobbyists and then we might actually have action , but like , and that really would just be a law changing or an amendment .

Speaker 1 1:10:11

How do ?

Speaker 2 1:10:12

you get rid of .

Speaker 1 1:10:13

Yeah , I mean earmarks lobbyists . That is , everybody's in bed with somebody , right ?

Speaker 2 1:10:19

Yeah , I think for one congressman there's 24 lobbyists . Holy crap . Yeah , I'm not that cynical too . I know , and also I want to say people are doing that fast , that is , I do believe that as well .

Speaker 1 1:10:33

Politicians or just across the board .

Speaker 2 1:10:35

Even politicians , because I don't think they're doing , they're like , and today I'm going to do this evil thing . You know , I think they think they're doing good . It just may not be our perspective or our expectations of what we would like to happen .

Speaker 1 1:10:54

Well , I also think we know it when we see it . We know a corrupt politician . When we see it right . There's earnest , there's earnestness and there is the opposite . And we know it when we see it . We can leave it at that .

Speaker 2 1:11:07

Yeah , yeah , and you hear it . You hear it when they speak . I think so , I mean I mean , I think there's some people you can you know that that they really are coming from their heart ?

Speaker 1 1:11:19

Well for example yeah , I mean , we just had a speaker of the house dethroned , right . Yeah , I mean , how clear could it be that playing the game bit him in the ass ? I mean , do you know the whole story around how that all happened ? It's like you know it when you see it . Yeah , so there might be an entire party that is on its way out . We need to reinvent that paradigm .

Speaker 1 1:11:45

So in the , you know , in the spirit of actually not being as cynical as many on a really , really good day , I see the value of all pendulum swings . Right , because there's a very slow forward movement in terms of our noosphere evolving , our invisible realm of policies , codes we live by , ethics , morals , right , the invisible realm called the noosphere I love that word . It is evolving slower than all of us would like , but it is evolving . You know , there's one book and I wish I could remember the names , they're in my book but I can't come up with them right now but there's an entire book on how there's less physical hand-to-hand violence than ever before in human history . Well , then someone else will come forward if they see the glass half empty and say , oh no , it's just sublimated and takes the form of the skin trade and you know oppression and marginalization . It just looks different .

Speaker 1 1:12:39

Well then another book came out that said nope , hand-to-hand . It is at an all-time low . You just can't see the big picture all the time

Story's Role in Human History

Speaker 1 1:12:46

. So , in the interest of maintaining hope , I actually think our two-party system works pretty well . You know we need a third party and a fourth party , absolutely . But imagine if we didn't have right the checks and balances of extremely opposing ideas . We could have gone off the rails a long time ago . Democracy never lasts . It hasn't lasted yet .

Speaker 2 1:13:09

Well , I would argue , democracy is when everybody has a seat at the table . So it hasn't even happened .

Speaker 1 1:13:14

Yeah , a two-party system is in itself a contradiction of democracy , right .

Speaker 2 1:13:19

Yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 1 1:13:21

Yeah , I didn't expect this to go toward politics either but here we are .

Speaker 2 1:13:27

But those are fake stories . The stories the nations tell , Mm-hmm .

Speaker 1 1:13:31

I agree it's a cultural narrative and we're see . I guess that's the agenda of my book , my nonfiction , believe it or not , everything I've ever written and I'm on the leadest . I went to Art Center so I had this drilled into my head , right , Artistic integrity and literary value same thing . You can't be attached to the outcome . You simply can't have an agenda or that's , by definition , propaganda , right ? So you just , in art , you are the creative process , you serve the process , you serve the initial inspiration , but you can't be concerned with outcome .

Speaker 1 1:14:07

However , I wrote my one nonfiction book and here we are . So yes , it's an agenda , if that makes sense . But I guess what I hope you know people hear in the podcast and the book is that we do have the power to actively , instead of just being those fish in the boiling water and buying socialization hook line and sinker , unexamined right , or buying the status quo unexamined , that we start to recognize story in all its forms . Oh , like you said earlier , am I watching a narrative on the news ? Gee , I hadn't even thought of it that way . But between MSNBC and CNN and Fox News and Al Jazeera , who is telling the story and who's my daddy in this scenario ? Does ?

Speaker 2 1:14:50

that make sense ? Yeah , absolutely , it's very yeah .

Speaker 1 1:14:53

So I'm just championing an awareness of story and when it borders on propaganda versus when does it actually have redemptive content ? And that can be in the eye of the beholder , but in most traditions in literature and even in film entertainment , that just means when the conflict resolution results in thematic content .

Speaker 2 1:15:11

So yeah , and when I think of propaganda , you know it's to propagate and what are we propagating on this field , in this dimension , and if you're propagating something that is a beauty , you know , and again that's ambiguous , but like coming from your true heart , and you're propagating a feeling of upliftment , inspiration .

Speaker 1 1:15:42

I guess you could call those the platonic values . The list of platonic values is equanimity , beauty , truth , right , I'm not going to think of them all , but Deepak Chopra talks a lot about platonic values and I agree . So those that's not on the eye of the beholder , those are schools of thought that have existed in many wisdom traditions for a long time .

Speaker 2 1:16:03

They actually hold energy .

Speaker 1 1:16:05

Absolutely .

Speaker 2 1:16:07

Yeah , and they lessen cortisol .

Speaker 1 1:16:10

Yep , yeah , that's the redemptive part of it , but I just wanted to add , because I think some listeners are going to be writers , right . So we have filmed entertainment people that consider themselves storytellers . We have people from the literary realm that might have a slightly different set of rules , right , but I just wanted to offer that for me , in my worldview , at this moment , the way I understand the difference between art and propaganda , the literary value I was referring to is literally the conflict resolution results in transformation for the protagonist . Therefore , the patron receives that catharsis , but more than that , and I will really hope , this lands content . There's a lot of content swirling around in social media right now . There's copywriters that write , in my opinion , quite vacuous content .

Speaker 1 1:17:03

There are tropes that AI can put in a blender and spit out a quote unquote story . But you know what , where I parse the difference between story and content , is this redemptive value , the one thing that's missing . If you have AI cobbled together old , tired tropes , right , like , oh , the detective novel meets the hardboiled detective novel , meets film noir , sure , you can come up with a screenplay . But what's missing in that equation ? It's called inspiration , right , that thing , that bird splashing through that puddle that forced you to go home and thumbnail it in your right or just thumbnail it right . Right , a real rough draft . You couldn't not do it because the inspiration came from the universe . So hear me , you and I share this . I know .

Speaker 1 1:17:50

If you believe in collective consciousness going back to entanglement , if you believe in that invisible , non-local energy that actually is shuttling around particles in our bodies all day , every day , and no one can explain it yet , then is it that much of a leap to say the universe knows what it needs to propagate not just biological life , but consciousness ? It's going to reach out to every one of us as individuals and demand from us what is needed for propagation . That's what creativity is . It's the most divine thing somebody can do . So you know what I mean . Ai oh , you guys are a dime who doesn't . That's what these higher ups are saying right now . Oh , we don't need screenwriters , we can pay you dirt because we've got AI to you . Know what's still missing in that ? Not just the human touch inspiration from the universe that knows what it needs for life to persist .

Speaker 2 1:18:42

Yeah , agreed , and I would say the universe is creation and needs us . You know , like we are various , like a hologram of creation , you know every one of us , that's what you're , you know .

Speaker 1 1:18:58

Yeah , it's so inseparable , isn't it ? I mean , I think creativity is divine . That's why it's my religion , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 2 1:19:07

And it comes in so many different forms .

Speaker 1 1:19:10

I hope I didn't lose you , god . I actually have been very good at not about not whipping out the soapbox in most of these interviews , you know .

Speaker 2 1:19:16

I mean .

Speaker 1 1:19:17

Rosalind .

Speaker 2 1:19:19

No , but I was going to say it's like in so many different forms . Right Creativity comes in all different forms .

Speaker 1 1:19:25

It is life , Creativity is life . So I guess I need to pee . I don't know about you , but we can wrap it up . I really would love to do because there are a lot of things we didn't touch on would love to do a part B , but for this segment , is there anything you feel are really inspired to share about the role of ? One thing I had wanted to ask you is what has been the role of story from day one in human history from an anthropological perspective ? You know what is the story we've ?

Speaker 1 1:19:53

been telling about ourselves . But then what's the story ? What's next ? What's the next story we're going to tell ourselves ? That's a two-part question , I know .

Speaker 2 1:20:00

Yeah , yeah , because when I think of story from like just focusing , like when I'm focusing on ethnography , it's become inspirational and they're true stories , you know , about people who are experiencing things in their culture , from their cultural perspective . I didn't want , because when I think of inspiration , I think of like . I don't know if you've heard of Iriga Berta Menchu . It does not regal . Okay , so it's a Guatemalan woman , she's a Quechua and it was during the time of the American coup , batcou in Guatemala in the 80s , and it's her story being a Quechua woman and working in the coffee fields and everything that happens to her and her family . And you know , it's all these atrocities , but you see her come through and become a huge peace activist on the world . She got the Nobel Prize and her story was , you know , extremely inspirational and the job of the anthropologist was really just to be described . I mean just to do all the Western style stuff to get it out in the Western world .

Speaker 2 1:21:14

She documented in a journalistic fashion , in other words yeah , yeah , just really be ascribed with her , because it's not like she they were , you know , illiterate per se , and yeah , she just documented it and tried to stay out of the way of her . You know what she was hearing because you know . Yeah , so it's like there's so many different stories , that's the thing , like there's not one overall story , except in the sense when you get back to , like , the hero's journey .

Speaker 1 1:21:48

That's what I guess I was hinting at is like is there a human story or is everything culturally relative ? Is there one human story ?

Speaker 2 1:21:54

Yeah , yeah , and there's , you know , something like yeah , I think there is a human , there's a structure for a human story . So the characters are different , experiences might be different , but there's like a structure for overcoming , gathering your friends , dealing with conflict , you know , and that actually gets to the tarot , because that's the fool's journey through the whole major arcana .

Speaker 1 1:22:21

You could argue all stories are hero's journeys , right . So it's about transforming through conflict resolution , but also largely accepting the call , right , yes , connecting with purpose . So I agree if you I guess a lot of schools have thought would say that you're trying to encapsulate the human condition , right with your story arc . And I took it a little further and said the nature of consciousness in the physical realm . That's how wacky I am . But that's what story is , that's what the one human story is when you talk about cultural relativity . I just wanted to share this .

Speaker 1 1:22:57

I never was good at history I think I told you this before because , like war makes no sense to me , so learning history is just learning all these dates of battles , and like my brain can't even wrap around war to begin with . So it just went in one ear and out the other . The minute history clicked for me was in my twenties , at Disney . I find me read a philosophy for dummies book and that's because I'm so visual . Suddenly I thought , oh so fism was the . And it's almost like Hegel's dialectic there's an overriding philosophy on the planet at any given time . And sure you could say , yes , in Judeo-Christian Western European tradition . But within reason I thought , oh so fism .

Speaker 1 1:23:34

That's when individualism and personal liberty was at the forefront , and no wonder the French Revolution and the American Revolution happened in that same moment . So there might be . You know , all world events can kind of be explained by whatever the overriding philosophy is . Marxism , you know what I mean . It resulted in a lot of different paradigm shifts the world over . What do you think of that ? Or is it all relative culturally ?

Speaker 2 1:24:02

Okay . So I would think for the bigger societies that still have a lot of Western influence or even some Eastern influence , the smaller cultures ? They don't look at the world like that at all . You know like it's not like that at all . Like you know different Amazonian tribes , and there's so many diversity within that , or different African tribes there are many cultures on this planet that they don't even think that way . Right . They don't , you

Exploring Indigenous Stories and Cultural Shifts

Speaker 2 1:24:42

know . So I think for you know the overall society to hold the power , have stories that it's definitely applicable .

Speaker 1 1:24:56

You used to say third world and first world , but we have developing countries and maybe the human story is learning to embrace all the stories . Right the same way . Again , in a country like the United States of America , we're learning diversity and inclusion and we're learning that everybody's story does play into the cultural narrative . What if humanity as a whole , in order to right , not kill ourselves off , we're being called upon to tell those stories , like you're saying , from an indigenous peoples that otherwise has no way of telling their story ?

Speaker 2 1:25:30

Yeah , yeah or yeah . So there is a story of the eagle in the condor in Indian cultures and a lot of South American cultures , and I'm just paraphrasing , you know . But like the eagle is a symbolic of the West , and when I say West it's not just West , it could be like Japan , like that whole kind of way of living . The eagle has the resources really good with technology and things like that , but the condor would kind of left and the condor lived from the heart , strictly from the heart , and there's going to be a time where we're going to see the eagle and the condor fly together .

Speaker 1 1:26:14

Beautiful .

Speaker 2 1:26:15

And they and I just have to put this out there , because I'm up in Humboldt County and we have eagles and I get to see eagles fly , bald eagles , golden eagles and we have recently the tribe . The Weot tribe here has brought back the condor in the past like four years , and so we are starting to see and I'm getting chills the eagle fly here in Humboldt .

Speaker 1 1:26:43

Against all odds , right the condor by the skin on our teeth .

Speaker 2 1:26:47

Yep , yep , bringing back the condor , and they're so beautiful and giant .

Speaker 2 1:26:51

That is such a metaphor , that is , the metaphor for where we're headed or where we need to be headed and so up here as well , because you know again , the news doesn't always talk about what's happening in our own backyard . So Cal we recently our state college turned into Cal Poly , humboldt and they brought in a new department . It's the . It's a native food sovereignty lab and it's bringing back the indigenous ways up here with food and art and all that as a whole . You know , you got social science building . Now you have the indigenous building . Beautiful Indigenous scientists are being recognized in academia .

Speaker 1 1:27:40

By extension , is there a shift , a local shift , you know , because education is evolving or is that going to take time ?

Speaker 2 1:27:48

in other words , Well , so I think absolutely it's slowly . Education is on all levels , formal and informal , is evolving , and so we also are bringing back fire management to the indigenous ways up here . Fire management .

Speaker 1 1:28:05

Well , according to the orange asshole , all you need to do is sweep the forest . You didn't know that ?

Speaker 2 1:28:10

Yes , and that is not the case or dumping a whole bunch of chemicals to put the I mean you have to put the fires out in the horrible but like there are ways to manage that have been done for hundreds of years prior to . And then we're there's a lot of renaming of ceremonial sites back to original names and still have always been used for practice , you know . But now the tribes have complete control of those and so I think the energy shifts and we're also releasing the Klamath Dam up here , because for hundreds of years there's way to manage the salmon through earth dances and other dances , so every tribe down the river got salmon and nobody would hoard it . And so , like , when I'm thinking of the like , because there are cultures on this planet that look in a circle and know that we enter , are and it's coming back , and now I think it's integrating , when I think of the eagle and the condor , because you don't just completely get rid of Western ideas Is there some amazing Western idea ? You know it's like it's integrating them .

Speaker 1 1:29:22

I love it .

Speaker 2 1:29:23

Giving them equal value .

Speaker 1 1:29:25

I love it to jump in two things real quick to tie back into story In my classes the very first day , especially in visual development . It's called . I just start with an exercise about archetypes and without thinking too much , I just say , all right , don't do word association . But if I mention so , I give them a percept and they write the related concept . So with eagle , of course you hear predatory and then a complete flip . On the archetype you hear freedom and just kind of vacillates back and forth between predatory and almost aggressive and violent and just freedom . And I always point out well , you know it is our symbol and the Nazis . So it's a really fascinating archetype .

Speaker 1 1:30:12

But I also wanted to say you know there's this big sort of standoff between Norkel and Sokel , right , and I think LA in particular gives the entire Southland a bad name . But I want to point out that like there's a huge in terms of what you're offering here , you know the Native Americans right here in the San Fernando Valley were just like everybody else , squashed , but there's a huge movement to revitalize the LA River , for example , and there's an example in South Korea . I forget the name of the river , but it was the same thing . It was like this flood canal that went straight through the middle of the city and you know , the LA Wash was just lined with concrete as a WPA right effort to create jobs and there wasn't a whole lot of flooding that was taking place . So , anyway , I don't know if you've heard about the push to revitalize it and reintroduce the local wildlife .

Speaker 2 1:31:07

Yes , yes , I have , and I've seen even places where they have done it and people are kayaking now .

Speaker 1 1:31:13

Exactly Well , but in South Korea it's become the destination , the center of cultural life in the city if people want to go there . We're not near there yet with the LA Wash , but anyway , in the nameless print I predicted even in the first book the growth of the homeless colonies along the LA Wash . I saw that coming , apparently , and the solution in the second book was not only the revitalization of the LA Wash but it's a little utopian . It's like a Christiana Freetown in Copenhagen . Have you heard of that ?

Speaker 2 1:31:49

Yes , I have , yes , yeah .

Speaker 1 1:31:51

And it's working . You know , I mean there were kabutsas and there's been communes and this is just a form of that , I guess . But I kind of modeled my utopian society in the nameless prints , the second book after Christiana Freetown , and I thought it's silly . But what if the homeless population were not relocated , or if there weren't these superficial efforts to provide them resources and house them , which never seems to work ? What if they were just allowed to sell their wares tax-free and be exempt from property taxes and just have their space ? It sounds a little utopian but it works in the book .

Speaker 2 1:32:33

Yeah , you know it just because you made me think of this place in Lithuania , but it's its own place . It has ambassadors and it's recognized in the UN . It's called Usupio and it's an artist community . It used to be a Jewish ghetto , turned artist community and they rewrote their own constitution and if anybody wants to look it up , it's a great constitution to read . It's beautiful and funny and it's UZUPIO is how you spell the little sovereign place . They have an ambassador of dreams . They have beautiful statues of like , yeah , frank Zappa , it's just such a neat little place and they talk about like . They have cats in their constitution and dogs in their constitution and like all of it , Like yeah , check it out .

Speaker 2 1:33:32

I think you should check it out too , just for the beautiful art as well .

Speaker 1 1:33:35

Oh my , they're constitut- . Oh , I thought you meant the constitution .

Speaker 2 1:33:39

The constitution is when you walk into the little sovereign , I guess area . The constitution is all on this whole wall , on these big beautiful glass . Oh , I see .

Speaker 1 1:33:51

Did you know ? I live in Little Lithuania .

Speaker 2 1:33:54

No , la Bosse , La Bosse , that's how you say hello .

Speaker 1 1:33:59

I did not know that , but I know the festival just happened in October . I live in Little Lithuania .

Speaker 2 1:34:04

I did not know that .

Speaker 1 1:34:06

Well , now you do .

Speaker 2 1:34:08

But the thing about .

Speaker 1 1:34:09

Christiana Freetown is , I joke like they're self-governing and it is very much a commune and they fight . But you know what , no one's dead yet . It kind of works . Anyway , I think we're going to wrap this up . I'm so sorry for taking so much of your time .

Speaker 2 1:34:24

I know it's always fun talking to you . There's just so much to talk about .

Speaker 1 1:34:28

Well , if you're ever up for it , we'll do part two .

Speaker 2 1:34:31

Yes , yes and yeah . I hope you got some content out of it Absolutely .

Speaker 1 1:34:36

I love it and I hope I'm sure we've inspired people out there and thank you for dropping . Whenever you made a reference , you spelled it out and I think people will be able to research these things .

Speaker 2 1:34:45

Yes , because also I just want to mention Tickknot . Hans book is called Zen and the Art of Saving the Planet . I highly recommend it and I know we're wrapping it up . Could I share one little story ?

Speaker 1 1:34:58

Please , yes , I loved your last one and , by the way , we'll put links in the description as well for Tickknot Hans book or anything you'd like .

Speaker 2 1:35:08

Okay , so there's , I'll hit . This man's name is Dr Amit Goswami Is this whole name and he's a quantum physicist and also he's retired from the University of Oregon and he goes back and forth to India and Oregon and he's been doing research in the quantum physics world with actual archetypes of truth and the archetype of love and the intuition , trying to measure it . But the story goes like this I was in India and I was in a little cafe in Dharamsala and I'm drinking my tea and I hear this man walk in and he is quoting English like nursery rhymes and poems and I started giggling because my mom , can you give her some words ? And she has all these nursery rhymes and poems for it . She was like she'll two words and she'll just go off . And so I started laughing because I was like I'm like this is my mom's like doppelganger right in India . And he saw me giggle and he comes and he sits down and we just started

Exploring Art, Spirituality, and Synchronicity

Speaker 2 1:36:25

talking .

Speaker 2 1:36:25

I had no clue who he was . He's a pretty , he's pretty famous in his realm and he's been in movies and stuff like about quantum physics and love and peace and all this amazing stuff . And he told me all I needed , all I need to ever like any book I ever have to read was the Bagbag Geeta , because everything I need to know is in that and I just thought I'd share that and I actually it's taken like eight years for me to actually start to pick up the book and read it . But he's just another person like if you just research him .

Speaker 1 1:36:58

So tell me , I mean , we're going to put it in the description again , but can you slow down and spell the name ?

Speaker 2 1:37:04

So it's doctor . And then a met a M I T go swami G O S a M I .

Speaker 1 1:37:15

Okay , and the book was .

Speaker 2 1:37:18

Oh , he's got so many books . I don't have the book's name , he's a different film . So if you just look him up , he's got so many books . He's doing all this work and I think he's mostly a new deli now on quantum physics and the archetype of truth , the archetype of love and just measuring it and and and that our reality is all wasn't he the one that said all you need to do is read this one book ? Oh , the bag bag , the bag bag .

Speaker 1 1:37:49

That's what I was hoping you would spell .

Speaker 2 1:37:51

Oh bag oh it's a narrative .

Speaker 1 1:37:56

It's narrative right .

Speaker 2 1:37:57

Yeah , it's narrative about Krishna and our June's journey .

Speaker 1 1:38:04

Yeah , I feel like the profit is a little bit like that . Like you know , people love the alchemist as a more contemporary bestseller , but the profit is like well , there's your handbook for life right there .

Speaker 2 1:38:14

Yeah , yeah , and this was written 5000 years ago , people held was the profit . Yeah , like , um , I love the prophet and I love the alchemists . By the way , those books are so beautiful . Um yeah , roomie , not 5,000 years . Yeah yeah , I'm not sure . All beautiful books . Actually , I don't think you can go wrong reading any of them .

Speaker 1 1:38:41

Well , maybe you can give me the yeah , exactly , um , give me the spelling later and we'll put it of that book and we'll put it in the description .

Speaker 2 1:38:49

Yeah , okay , yeah , it was just like because the way he came in was so funny , you know . And then I find out later he's like this whole , like everything we're talking about , and then he's trying to measure it in science , you know .

Speaker 1 1:39:02

I love it . Well , that's again . I'm not an expert in any one thing , but my book was largely about you know what ? Let's reconcile all these imaginary divides by . You know , if you're freaked out by the word spirit , like I offer , you know , facetiously , like if you're an artist who can't talk about the soul or the spirit or spirituality , you're shooting yourself in the foot because we're speaking the language of archetypes . They're just words like get over it . I'm talking Oprah's spirituality . You know there's a , it's anything , that's just not your body . So let's not get hung up on semantics . But I do , gently , you know .

Speaker 1 1:39:42

Again , I was really immersed in the biology of belief . So going inward to sell biology and really talking about it and reconciling it with our understanding of quantum mechanics in the moment , with breakthroughs and epigenetics . Again , not an expert in any one thing , but I'm really good at connecting dots and that's my gift . Do you know what I mean ? Seeing all sides of an issue , but also reconciling and synthesizing seemingly opposing thought forms with a little shift in perspective and an understanding of semantics . So I love that . There's a great book called Art and Science . Have you ever heard of that ?

Speaker 2 1:40:17

It sounds really familiar . I feel like it's from the 70s or something .

Speaker 1 1:40:21

Yeah , yeah , and it just goes kind of like scientific breakthrough by breakthrough and talks about how it was predated by a visionary . And I frankly think our artists can be prophets , you know .

Speaker 2 1:40:36

Oh , absolutely .

Speaker 1 1:40:37

We all have access to the reservoir we're talking about . So every like I think epigenetics was talked about beautifully in the Scarlett letter , sorry . And then they talk about Magritte and surrealism in general and how Impressionism talked a lot about you know , the coming understanding of subatomic particles and stuff like that .

Speaker 2 1:40:58

You know , have you heard of Hilma , of Clint ? Yeah , and Hilma was an artist in the gosh , I want to say mid 1800s . She was a female artist and she lost her . She's Swedish and she lost her sister and it kind of put her on a spiritual journey . Her sister died and it was a time when people are having seances and all that whole theosophy , rudolf Steiner , all those guys were coming out and she channeled paintings and they are the such just beautiful paintings and you might have to actually retell the story of not I don't know if it's surrealism or abstract , you're going to know Abstract expressionism maybe .

Speaker 2 1:41:55

Yeah , and so she actually might have been one of the first , but that's neither here nor there . But then it's just you have to . I think you'll just find her story so fascinating because her paintings weren't shown until recently , like the early .

Speaker 1 1:42:12

Well and real quick she was . She didn't identify as a painter , correct ?

Speaker 2 1:42:16

Oh , she was an artist .

Speaker 1 1:42:17

She was . Oh , she already was Okay .

Speaker 2 1:42:18

Yeah , she was a female artist and it took for her to get into art school at that time as a woman , like wasn't the easiest thing .

Speaker 1 1:42:28

The reason I asked is it . To me it's a little bit like . You know , there are people and again I'm really immersed in the biology of belief so there's so many examples of people that wake up speaking German and yet they've never studied it . Or they wake up playing concert piano and never having laid a finger on a keyboard . So that is evidence that we do have access to the whole of humanity , right and to to wrote the whole database of what we've , what's been encoded on our DNA from day one , is the way I would put it .

Speaker 2 1:42:58

Yeah , and it was actually , and it was like actually a group of like five women really who worked on these ginormous paintings , and how they were channeled collectively really , because the channel whatever came through them Wanted the paintings of what other dimensions look like , and what different stages of life is like in those other dimensions .

Speaker 1 1:43:25

Well , Mondrian was really specific about , you know , just by virtue of dividing up a picture plane in a certain way , right with the golden mean , but randomness and variation , and then having the focal point here instead of there . His concepts were as specific as cosmic harmony . Like this composition is meant to induce cosmic harmony if you fill your field of vision with it . So I'm fascinated with that idea that you can represent , right , a given plane . That's some channeling there .

Speaker 2 1:43:54

Yeah through , actually one of the women with her body was used as a channel to give the instructions .

Speaker 1 1:44:01

Did she levitate ?

Speaker 2 1:44:03

She did not levitate . But it's a , it's a , it's a real trippy story , you know .

Speaker 1 1:44:08

I'm going to check it out .

Speaker 2 1:44:09

Yeah , because she in the voice cut frame . You have to do it in a spiral temple and you have to show these ginormous paintings in a spiral temple and it wasn't until she was in the . She died long before the paintings . They were hidden for like 30 years , 40 years and they showed up in the gig . Is it the Guggenheim ?

Speaker 1 1:44:28

Guggenheim yeah .

Speaker 2 1:44:30

Guggenheim and how it spirals up the and so her whole . She had a whole collection for that whole spiral exhibit .

Speaker 1 1:44:37

What year was that ?

Speaker 2 1:44:40

That was , I want to say , the early 2000s they found for paintings .

Speaker 1 1:44:43

Wow , yeah , I worked in Greenwich , connecticut , and I was living in Manhattan and I went to the Guggenheim a few times . I feel like maybe it was there around that time , okay , yeah , okay . But now I'm going to read the book . I for sure Hilma . And then what's the last name ?

Speaker 2 1:45:00

Of Clint . It's a story of Clint's , the area in Sweden , I believe .

Speaker 1 1:45:05

Oh , I see .

Speaker 2 1:45:07

You'll find her .

Speaker 1 1:45:09

I'll check it out mine .

Speaker 2 1:45:10

Yes , yes , I just thought it was so beautiful and I'll just do one more synchronization . I actually put one of my paintings . I took a picture on Google and I thought I don't even know style or anything this would be , and then she came up . I didn't know about her . I found her through one of my paintings .

Speaker 1 1:45:30

Wait a minute , you were Googling your own paintings .

Speaker 2 1:45:33

I took Google on my own painting to see what kind of style it would be . So I took a picture of my painting .

Speaker 1 1:45:40

I see you were doing image search , yeah .

Speaker 2 1:45:42

Yeah , an image search , and that's who came up .

Speaker 1 1:45:46

Wow .

Speaker 2 1:45:47

And then I learned about her .

Speaker 1 1:45:49

You channeled her .

Speaker 2 1:45:51

Yeah .

Speaker 1 1:45:53

Yeah , the next time we'll tell ayahuasca stories . Really , I'm really interested , as you know , and especially the mythical entities that people seem to you know have in common when they do ayahuasca . Yeah , I'm really interested in the ways in which we can tap into collective consciousness .

Speaker 2 1:46:16

Absolutely , because I think , when people are creating art in all its form , you are channeling .

Speaker 1 1:46:21

Well , I agree , I agree .

Speaker 2 1:46:23

Yeah .

Speaker 1 1:46:25

All right , on that note , thank you for hanging in there so long . I'm going to edit it , but probably not that much . So this is going to be a long episode and I hope people find the inspiration in it .

Speaker 2 1:46:35

Oh yeah .

Speaker 1 1:46:36

Thank you for joining .

Speaker 2 1:46:38

Yes , hi to everybody up there .

Speaker 1 1:46:43

And also your tarot link . If people want a reading , they can go to the link , the main link to your website . Is that right , or just to learn more about ?

Speaker 2 1:46:51

it .

Speaker 1 1:46:51

Yeah , it's actually just an email , and so maybe we can talk about it more next time as you say I really do want to talk about because again , something I know very little about , but I know it's all about story , right ?

Speaker 2 1:47:05

It's all about story . It really is the hero's journey and who the fool meets . I want to devote . That's what our next episode will be .

Speaker 1 1:47:13

I would love to devote it to just Tarum .

Speaker 2 1:47:15

Yeah , because it's pretty trippy and like sat on return and his yeah and elements . It's all connected .

Speaker 1 1:47:25

I love it . Well , we'll see that . Thank you so much .

Speaker 2 1:47:28

Yeah , thank you .

Speaker 1 1:47:29

I hope to see you soon when you're down . You're going to be down in a week or so , right ?

Speaker 2 1:47:33

Yeah , I'll be down on the 29th and I'll be there until the 12th and we definitely can get together .

Speaker 1 1:47:38

Awesome . Thank you so much .

Speaker 2 1:47:40

Yeah , thanks , nick , I'm looking forward to it . Love you , love you too . Bye-bye .

Speaker 1 1:47:45

And out there in cyberspace . We'll see you next time . Remember , life is story and we can get our hands in the clay and , to mix metaphors , write our own story . See you next time .